Okay I am going to propose a question here regarding the certification of judges. As most know at the Nats and CoC there is a class on judging a van. I have attended several of these classes. And yes I am a certified judge. Have been for several years along with my wife Wendy. My question is this, Does attending one of these classes and taking a test qualify the person to walk out on the field and judge a nationals? For some this could very well be the first time they ever judged a show in their vanning career. I was talking with several others at a recent event and they seem to agree. One class and a card does not a judge make thee. I hold nothing against the Nats Board and Howard, Judith, Coop, Paul etc for putting on this class. It is very informative and well worth the hour or two that it takes to cover. Truthfully several days of this would not be enough. There is just too much and I am still learning and have been judging for 28 years. It is just not something to learn overnight or in a few hour course. I would like to hear others thoughts on this as well as the Nats board's. You can now throw the rims at me. I will try to duck.
Hey Phil,
I took the judging seminar at the CofC in Vegas this year. I did pass it & have my certified van judge card. I would think this would mean that I could be a judge at the Nats.
It is just a piece of paper,but it does say I am certified. Although nobody is ever 100% qualified to judge anything, I am confident that I could judge anything van related. I do know what to look for when judging a show. Just my 2%,Brad
Basically what I am referring to is if someone who has never judged a van in any show. Really is not familiar with the details, etc. and is thrust into the biggest show they can possibly be put into. I have seen judges who you can drill into their heads no matter what that you do not score a van perfect in a category. As Howard has stated, you start in the middle. If the points spread is 0-30, start at 15 and go up or down depending on what you see and feel. A personal feelings need to go out the window. IE: "I hate Dodges but I am stuck doing these and Joe has a Dodge. I will show him. I will score him low because I can." I know, a radical thought but totally conceivable. To be honest with you I was asked to help judge an event last year with someone who never did it before. This person is a friend of mine but had never judged and was clueless in his own words. I walked him through what we were judging and left him go on a few by himself. Wanted him to fly on his own so to speak. He did ok. I know he took the class this year and I believe was certified. He was also judging vans at the Nats. Was he really ready for this step up or should he have had a few smaller venues under his belt? Just some questions I am pondering since all I seem to be doing lately is stare at walls. Yes I am taking my meds so do not ask.
Good point Phil, but i dont think it matters if you have been judging for 30 years or 3 days, someone is going to have a problem with the way someone judges.
im sure this can turn into a can of worms.i was taught 0 plus judgeing,so most of my scores are always low.judgeing is always what you see,not always do even an experenced judges see everything.i think the idea of certification judges is a great start. and as we all know everything can be improved upon. how do we improve the system?
how do we improve the system?
Don't worry Phil, it's time for them to throw stuff at me
I agree with Phil and I also agree with the other statements above. I think the biggest thing about being a NEW judge at the Nationals is that the JUDGING SHEET is very New Judge UNFRIENDLY!
I have judged our clubs 7 van runs by myself and have helped at least a half dozen times at other eVANts. I have to admit I had the BEST judging sheet. I need to try and find one, but it was almost idiot proof. The idea that the Nats Board came up with the sheet they use was GREAT, but to me it is more for a seasoned VAN Judge.
I think this was an issue at Keystone as well. I think one of the classes got messed up because 2 vanners were judging the same class and had way different scoring techniques. Well needless to say the nicest van in the class received NO award, and the owner was pissed. Now the mishap is a speculation on my part, and I also realize STUFF happens, but like I said above, MY feeling is that a better judging sheet can be made up, to help new and old judges.
Just MOSTLY my opinion.
would love to see you example
the best judging sheet would be a plain piece of paper?
now that would be fun
Once a person has taken the class and judged the vans that we present to them for judging, they may be certified. Coop and I go over the judging sheets and basically grade them. If a person apparently "gets it" they are certified. If not, then they are not! Part of the responsibility that comes with that is to make oneself available to be a judge at subsequent nationals. We have certified judges that do that. We also have certified judges that have never done that. Whether the nats is your first foray into judging, or your 91st, nobody is perfect, and no system is perfect. You are only judging 1 or 2 classes, and usually the smaller ones. We always encourage the host clubs to bring us their judging sheets so we can check them out and approve them. I don't remember seeing any in at least 10 years.
We started the certification process to help the host clubs achieve some consistency and for them to have the show handled in a professional manner. 3 recent nats have screwed up the show very badly, and we don't need that. Everyone with input and suggestions are welcome, but have the respect to come to the seminars and see what is up, and if you are a certified judge, come add your knowledge by judging, instead of asking generic questions that really don't have answers!
I'm guilty of that Howard. It's hard for me to take pictures of the entire show and judge to tho.
I think what Howard said above is a good idea also. Maybe at some of the classes to certify the new judges, maybe there could be a BS session to get some ideas and questions from the new and older judges.
The reason I said what I did above has mostly to do with what Howard was talking about at this years certification class which I took. We judged an Early Ford and an Astro. Now, they were fairly easy vans to judge, but Howard with his wealth of knowledge was pointing out items on the Early that changed from year to year and how some vanners may opt to do so. Now, I'm not saying that new judges wouldn't know some of these things, but if the sheet listed modifications then the van owner could mark or write specific modifications down that may otherwise be missed by a judge.
I really need to find my judging sheet for you all to see. I'll do some digging.
By the way, I'm not trying to cause any trouble with anyone, I'm just trying to be constructive
Sorry Howard if I ruffled your feathers on this one. That was not my intent but I may have struck a nerve it seems. Maybe a good way would be for any newly certified judges who are still not all that familiar with the judging format, ins and outs be teamed with a more seasoned judge during the judging of the vans and that way if any questions arise they have someone to turn to.
Judging Vans is not an easy task.It's usually Hot and a Thankless job.Just be careful to not discourage vanners from not wanting to take the class or judge vans.
Good point Wizard, and I'm sure that's not what this is about. I do agree with Phil on the account that it may take a bit more training for some inexperienced judges. In the same sense that maybe a novice judge would want more training before starting to judge.
Exactly the point I am trying to make. I have debated posting this for some time now and was afraid of the result I was going to get. Obviously some may be taking it out of context and if so I am sorry.
one of the best ways to learn how to judge a van is to build a show winning van
this years nats i took the judging course and passed,but no card in the mail yet.
what happened
superbeast,
did'nt howard say not to show the sheets to anyone
Good point Wizard, and I'm sure that's not what this is about. I do agree with Phil on the account that it may take a bit more training for some inexperienced judges. In the same sense that maybe a novice judge would want more training before starting to judge.
I agree! I took the class at this years Nats, and was asked to judge, which I did. It WAS a hot job! and took a long time. I did get my card and am certified, (some say certifiable)
, But I am always open to more training, you can never learn it all. I think I get you're point Phil and I don't think you are slamming anyone.
Good point Wizard, and I'm sure that's not what this is about. I do agree with Phil on the account that it may take a bit more training for some inexperienced judges. In the same sense that maybe a novice judge would want more training before starting to judge.
Cool,I'm all for learning more on judging.I even ask Howard at the Nats if I could take it again.I do believe a beginner should go out he's first time with a more seasoned judge.
this years nats i took the judging course and passed,but no card in the mail yet.
what happened
Didn't you get a card at the Nats?
Good input from everyone here...Eddie, not sure what happened with your card...I thought I gave one to everyone who judged. Having the new judges teamed with old ones is a great idea, except when we are short to start with. Sharpie and I tried to keep the rawest rookies in the strett classes to get them some experience. It's an evolution, still evolving. We really need more experienced judges to come to the seminars to lead discussions.
I agree with that Howard and I am glad this discusssion is going the way it should. I will try to attend the next class and see if I can give some useful input. One thing I have learned though over the years is that there still is more to learn. The whole thing is a never ending process as it should be. Never be afraid to learn more. I do not know if I will be able to attend the CoC though with money being non existant right now...well you know.
Anyway this is a good topic and I hope it keeps going because I think there can always be more input.
We are finding plenty to talk about at the seminars. as you said, there is so much info, it can get mind boggling. I grabbed Brian Bowie this year for some quick early Dodge lessons, and have picked Taz's brain at times about Chevys. We can all learn together!
I thought Taz's brain looked picked over this year !
opps, sorry for the hy-jack.
I Didn't get my card either, but I didn't judge. I told them I would help out after I finished taking pictures, but by the time I was done, they were almost finished judging
ok for my card here is my address
eddie
10-q
I edited your address off, mailing the card tomorrow! Thanks! Howard
I have judged and been invited to judge at quite a few events and really have no formal training except the first time , Stardreamer gave me a crash corse at an HVC event back at DJ's years ago and I learned more then than I have since. He had formal judging sheets and ran me through all the in's and out's and things went very well for my first go at it. I probably did the best I could and spent more time than any one else did, trying to be too thorough. I wish I had some more formal training and If I can get to a C of C I will attend the training corse.
I have some unclaimed judging cards. If you are on the list, PM me, I will mail yours to you...
From Vegas:
Howard Carlston
Bob Wagner
Robert Johnson
Brad Phillips
From Pa:
Jeff Marx
Jim Koval
Dave Collins
Ken Superbeast
Ray Barden
Frank Ponsillo
Hey Howard: You can hang on to my card til Vanfest. I'm not going to be judging a lot of vans over the winter. lol.
there will be a judging class at C of C this year correct?
Yes...not quite sure when, though...
Always thought about taking the classes but never have. Probably won't make CofC so will wait for nats next year.
Is it possible to post a copy of Nats board judging sheets? Or is the sheet submitted by host each year and used?
There is a copy of the Official Judges sheets on the National Truckin Board Site. Go to Resources and click on "How to Host a Nationals" and go to page 33 I believe and you can view the sheets.
Wacko
Thanks, Wacko...you beat me to it!
I ASSume that this thread is reguarding the judging at keystone
Heres my unwanted 2 cents
Building OR ADDING work to a van or a factory built van (conversion) is an art.
The bottom line is that, its hard to pin point whats better than others because the bueaty is in the eye of the beholder (judge).
The most seasoned judges can like or dislike something that others might feel different about.
Its very hard to judge art......like it or not, many of you are artist.
Art is difficult to judge...........
I know that many of you were surprised that I won best interior at keystone....I was shocked too !!!
But the more I think about it...the more I say, why not !!
Many people just give a quick look at conversion vans and assume that not much if anything was added and they move on......sometimes thier wrong.
Ive added so much to my van....and when you look inside the work ive added looks like the rest of the conversion package (with the exception of the front and middle wood console, my wood working aint that good) ive tried to make the other interior work ive added look factory !!!!
I also added loads of electronics in my van
2 tvs linked to each other(both w/remotes) the 7inch tv is in the hideaway overhead console
Both tvs are tied in to the stereo w/remote(surround sound)
2 laptops...(one on a custom built stand to watch dvd's while laying down, the stand is wrapped in original fabric)
Both laptops plug in to a 400 watt power inverter
xm reciever w/remote, in the hideaway overhead console
cb with extra speaker, in the hideaway overhead console
Stereo unit w/remote, in the hideaway overhead console
(it took mt about 4 months to build the hideaway overhead console, I wrapped the console in the original fabric )
2 dash fans
All the electronics are connected to to a deep cycle marine battery located under the bed.
A FULL size bed (almost queen size)made from 4 inch thick memory foam.
In addition to the full size bad...I still have all 4 of my swivel captain chairs !!
Original paint,motor tranny and interior (still looks dam good for 25 years old)last 4 years van has been a daily driver
But again many of you wouldnt notice the added work to the interior of my van........at keystone it took me about 15 minets to point out all the work to the judge,and im thankful he noticed !!!!
Oh by the way at a local CAR show this weekend (oct 4)....I pulled 3rd place trophy in truck class....HURRAY !!
Now that im done tooting my own horn
I will say that at some of the runs the street vans are in the same class as the modified vans.......this stinks !!
But I do understand that its hard for a club to have many classes... because the trophys are expensive !!!
Anyways im looking forward to seeing you guys at summerset until then.....see ya !!
Anthony
Toot, Toot! Actually this thread was about certified judges at the Nats, BUT>>>you bring up good points about LOOKING at vans in the show, and again stress that the judging can determine the better (or nicer) vans, whether they are conversion based, or built from scratch! Congrats on the car show trophy. Vans have been doing well at shows this year!
Howard you can hang on to mine till Vanfest also. Save the postage.
Hey Anthony. No this does not have anything to do with the judging at Keystone. I never even made it up to the show. I was at my vendor booth the whole time. Wish I had taken time and gone up. Congrats on the best Interior man. I also did not not know that. Congrats again on the car show trophy.
See ya at Summerset.
Hey, here is a thought....how about a couple extra points if the Van being judged has a " Support Our Troops " Decal or License plate frame on it ??
Will there be a course at this year's Nats ? If yes when will it be ? I better take one, I've been winging it off and on since 79
.
Seems that is an opinion and not something that would be related to any of the VANs judging issues.
And I do believe--whether or not we have a phrase on any of our vehicles, we all support our troops!
We own 4 VANs, 2 cars and a garage full of lawn mowers--no declarations on any of them except the Free Tibet sticker on the Mercruiser.
Hmmm... Kind of like begging for points, eh Doc? Why not just bribe the judge? It is hot out in the field and a cold adult beverage is always welcome relief to a judge.
If you proudly display a declaration in support of the troops... it could possibly be construed as a safety item.
"If you don't stand behind our troops, feel free to stand in front of them!"
As for the earlier question of this thread...
I am also a judge at Vanfest in Canada. I like to judge the truck class as I have judged vans for many years and I like to mix it up every once in a while. Now I do not know everything about these custom trucks or the class I may be judging at the time, but I have faith in the judging sheet. It makes you look at everything that a judge is supposed to look at.
I compare the trucks to one another to "find" the added vs. stock features. If I do not know, I will ask the owner to clarify. I found a subtle difference in two trucks a few years ago, but I could not put my finger on it, until the owner admitted that he switched the right rear fender with the left rear fender. He complimented me for even noticing such a minute detail.
As far as my likes and dislikes... Sure I like vans more than trucks, but I "respect" the work involved in building a show truck and I only wish to be as fair as possible to the owners in that class. It is the same for vans. It does not matter if I like one brand or class better than another. I only wish to do the best that I can to provide a fair appraisal of the work done to the van. Is it perfect? No, but it is sincere and if you can not be fair and sincere when judging, then you have no business judging the work of others.
My two cents.
Hmmm... Kind of like begging for points, eh Doc? Why not just bribe the judge? It is hot out in the field and a cold adult beverage is always welcome relief to a judge.
If you proudly display a declaration in support of the troops... it could possibly be construed as a safety item.
"If you don't stand behind our troops, feel free to stand in front of them!" You need to bribe Doc with HOOTERS
As for the earlier question of this thread...
I am also a judge at Vanfest in Canada. I like to judge the truck class as I have judged vans for many years and I like to mix it up every once in a while. Now I do not know everything about these custom trucks or the class I may be judging at the time, but I have faith in the judging sheet. It makes you look at everything that a judge is supposed to look at.
I compare the trucks to one another to "find" the added vs. stock features. If I do not know, I will ask the owner to clarify. I found a subtle difference in two trucks a few years ago, but I could not put my finger on it, until the owner admitted that he switched the right rear fender with the left rear fender. He complimented me for even noticing such a minute detail.
As far as my likes and dislikes... Sure I like vans more than trucks, but I "respect" the work involved in building a show truck and I only wish to be as fair as possible to the owners in that class. It is the same for vans. It does not matter if I like one brand or class better than another. I only wish to do the best that I can to provide a fair appraisal of the work done to the van. Is it perfect? No, but it is sincere and if you can not be fair and sincere when judging, then you have no business judging the work of others.
My two cents.
I totally agree Tim!! Well said!!
Hmmm... Kind of like begging for points, eh Doc? Why not just bribe the judge? It is hot out in the field and a cold adult beverage is always welcome relief to a judge.
If you proudly display a declaration in support of the troops... it could possibly be construed as a safety item.
"If you don't stand behind our troops, feel free to stand in front of them!" You need to bribe Doc with HOOTERS
Hard to beg for points when my Van is always parked at the Circle during show and shine
Like I said, just a thought
Glad to see this thread reawakened just before the nats! We will be classifying on Thursday from 10-noon, and can do a Q and A then. It worked rather well last year. The key to judging is consistency. As long as you compare things fairly, you can judge a car, truck, van, or whatever. The other key is knowing what it started out like to spot the changes.
Hard to beg for points when my Van is always parked at the Circle during show and shine
Like I said, just a thought
I understand Doc... I like the thought. I would also have acknowledge that there are many vanners that are in full support of the troops, but do not wish to place a sticker on their expensive chrome or paint. Everyone expresses their support differently, so it should not be a van show breaker. Again, it is all about being fair. But keep them ideas coming!
Well said Tim!
Are the judging cards from last year going to be at this years Nats. I never did get mine?
I have a bundle of cards in my pile of crap
to bring...
Glad to see this thread reawakened just before the nats! We will be classifying on Thursday from 10-noon, and can do a Q and A then. It worked rather well last year. The key to judging is consistency. As long as you compare things fairly, you can judge a car, truck, van, or whatever. The other key is knowing what it started out like to spot the changes.
Glad I could help out from not quite so far away Howard
Hard to beg for points when my Van is always parked at the Circle during show and shine
Like I said, just a thought
I understand Doc... I like the thought. I would also have acknowledge that there are many vanners that are in full support of the troops, but do not wish to place a sticker on their expensive chrome or paint. Everyone expresses their support differently, so it should not be a van show breaker. Again, it is all about being fair. But keep them ideas coming!
One more idea then Tim
So Vanner's that do put " Support our Troops Stickers on expensive paint and chrome should get more than double credit ??, but a flag and plate frame would help a little ??
Well said Tim!
Are the judging cards from last year going to be at this years Nats. I never did get mine?
I agree !
I have a bundle of cards in my pile of crap
to bring...
Howard, we are still missing two or three girls from the 70's, while you are having a look for your cards, keep an eye out
One more idea then Tim
So Vanner's that do put " Support our Troops Stickers on expensive paint and chrome should get more than double credit ??, but a flag and plate frame would help a little ??
It makes me feel good when I see a declaration of support for the troops on a van, however if judges were to award points for this... Then how many points should the judges award if the vanner does not have any stickers or a flag plate frame, but has a son or daughter down range? Where would you draw the line? How many feelings would be hurt if someone was left out?
Doc, I am just doing my best to address your questions, so please take that into account.
"I was not there, but I still care."
Just me, I support the troops but don't see why points should be given to any van where it is pointed out with stickers,etc,just as political,religious views should not be...the VAN is being judged,not the owner.
That being said I think any judge should be aware of year changes to a van,mine for example is a 78 Ford which came with the round headlights & parking lights in the valance but have been converted to rectangular headlights with the parking lights below the headlights, so now it has 2 sets of parking lights but this seems to go unnoticed,maybe a headlight change is not a change being they are still factory type, I guess I need to put in the 8 light system I have.
Just me, I support the troops but don't see why points should be given to any van where it is pointed out with stickers,etc,just as political,religious views should not be...the VAN is being judged,not the owner.
I agree, thank you for your input.
That being said I think any judge should be aware of year changes to a van,mine for example is a 78 Ford which came with the round headlights & parking lights in the valance but have been converted to rectangular headlights with the parking lights below the headlights, so now it has 2 sets of parking lights but this seems to go unnoticed,maybe a headlight change is not a change being they are still factory type, I guess I need to put in the 8 light system I have.
You are correct VanVida. Knowing how the van was (stock) before customizing is key to awarding points for the changes. That is why I recommend that judges compare same year vans to each other or if in doubt... ask the owner about the changes.
We also recommend a judges' note or handbook about the changes you have made. Subtle changes sometimes go unnoticed. I changed the grille on my Ford from the 93 to a 96 because I liked the oval shape of the newer one. I also painted the license plate box in the rear doors to match the body. Most judges never noticed.
I agree that on the sheets there should be a spot where the ownners can help the judges by letting them know so of the modifications done to the van. Remember these guys and gals are spending allot of their time judging and missing some of these great events that we are all enjoying. I also agree that you need a great show field that allows ample space around each vehicle to allow the judges to see the changes especially all undercarriage revisions. This also allows for better pictures to be taken for projects such as the calendar we all love.
And sometimes we miss a body mod and mis class a van...I'll fix that this year!
Howard you are the second person to notice so I am impressed. See you there! Have a safe trip. Bring your straw for Nates drink!