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Posted By: liftarc 78 Tradesman 200 work/camper van build - May 16th 2018 3:56 pm
I didnt end up buying the 89 v6 5speed van. I found a super clean and straight 78 instead that I like much better. Has a 318 2bbl and 727. Also had an 8.75 rear swapped in. Still has original paint, front seats, rear bench, dash is unmolested and plaid accent door panels. I gutted the truckload of plywood, fiberglass and carpet from the back to have access to the few bits of rust and do some other work.

My goals are to be able to live out of the van while working out of town, haul my tools (roughly 2k lbs), provide myself running water and 110v power, and maintain the late 70s aesthetics.

The welded on hitch reciver had torn the rear spring mount on the passenger side and the 8.75 is less than ideal for dragging weight around especially with a 2.94 gear set so I installing the heavier mounts and a 3.54 d60 from an 86 b350. I will keep the lighter leaf springs for ride quality and install air bags for load carrying.

Im curious if anybody knows how much of the front I need to swap out to fit the 8 lug hubs up front. Are the ball joints the same or do I need to swap conteol arms also? Going back to the jy for the feont end parts today or tomorrow.

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Posted By: Reed Re: 78 Tradesman 200 work/camper van build - May 16th 2018 4:45 pm
You removed an 8 3/4? Unless you are towing houses that axle is plenty strong. Swapper gears is a breeze, too, because it has the removeable carrier. But I guess that ship has sailed. I bet you can sell that 8 3/4 axle for a good price to another vanner or to someone who will narrow it for a hot rod.

If you are getting junkyard parts I recommend just getting the control arms and everything in between. Then completely rebuilt the assemblies.
Posted By: liftarc Re: 78 Tradesman 200 work/camper van build - May 16th 2018 6:39 pm
Yeah I pulled the 8.75, I know its plenty strong in the diff and I'd likely never break it but I wanted a full float axle with better brakes. Whoever swapped the 8.75 in didnt adjust the driveshaft to fit and the slip yoke was nearly burried so I planned to hack the driveline either way. Plus I intend to sell the 8.75 for sure.

I read that the 86 b350 can have the same ball joints if equipped with the 3600# axle or different with the 4000# axle so to be safe I'll do as you've suggested and grab the control arms too.
Posted By: liftarc Re: 78 Tradesman 200 work/camper van build - May 19th 2018 3:05 am
I got the parts for the front today, all 4 control arms, everything between them and the trailing rods. I also got the stock front sway bar with mounts and hardware. I paid under $400 for everything to swap running gear and replace rear spring hangers/shackles, still need to get soft parts like ball joints and bushings though.

I found a lot more crap in the trans pan than I expected so I plan to use the 727 I was building for my 75 Plymouth van with a bunch of tci goodies. At this point Im debating putting my built 360 magnum with an edelbrock dual plane and 650 street demon in the van. I want to also install a gear vendors unit but that will be next year.

This may seem like overkill but thats what I need. Imagine hauling 2500lbs of pipefitting/welding tools 2500 miles from home and having your ride break down costing not only the tow and repairs but a loss of $300-400 per day in wages and losing per diem too. Overkill becomes well worth it.....

Posted By: liftarc Re: 78 Tradesman 200 work/camper van build - May 31st 2018 12:53 pm
Just a small update....

I tore down the d60 brakes and hubs, ordered a bunch of parts and expect to have it ready to install shortly.

Upper control arms from the 86 donor are not compatible, 78 uses eccentric bolts for alignment whereas the 86 uses sliding blocks. I need to dig more to see how different the ball joints really are.

I ordered some parts for cabin power, a smart battery isolator, cutoff, voltage monitor with usb and 12v outlets, and also ordered a really nice roof vent with fan and rain guard.

Been planning my interior layout, thinking murphy bed type setup hinging down from driver's side with my electrical mess below and storage cabinets above. Sink and such on pass side.

Not an exciting update, I only have 1 day a week at home and a portion of that for the van build... Still lots to figure out too... Moving along though!
Posted By: frscke1 Re: 78 Tradesman 200 work/camper van build - May 31st 2018 3:12 pm
A little at a time ...a little at a time

Before you know it its done .....
Posted By: liftarc Re: 78 Tradesman 200 work/camper van build - July 04th 2018 6:47 pm
I got the d60 rear installed and the van off the jackstands. Still need to redo the driveline, hook up the brakes, cut the excess off the u bolts, install the airbags and get tires. The big mud tires out back and little tires up front look wierd as hell. Now Im trying to decide what to do about the front, I very well may end up cutting off the tabs for the eccentric bolts and installing slots for the later style adjusters but I still need to compare the ball joints first. Also, if anyone knows where to get bushings for the 86 b350 leaf spring shackles I'm all ears. I couldn't find them so I reused the old ones for now.

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Posted By: liftarc Re: 78 Tradesman 200 work/camper van build - August 06th 2018 9:47 pm
I spent a few min on the front end 8 lug swap and made some progress there. The 86 b350 lower control arms go in just by drilling the bolt holes out to the larger diameter of the b350's hardware. The tapered bore at the top of the b350 knuckle engages the 78 b200's ball joint stud and vice versa. Biggest issue is putting a 16" wheel and tire combo in there with the shorter b200 springs. Granted I have big ole mud tires that are garbage awaiting replacement, but the sheetmetal rests on the rubber before the jack gets an inch or so from dropping away from the frame. So my plan, or reckless hope maybe, is to run the 78 upper control arms with the correct 78 hardware and ball joint, 86 b350 springs (that are 2 inches taller), shocks, lower control arms and lower ball joints and a more fitting tire size/type. I also plan to swap over to the b350 steering parts, too. Im hoping alignment wont be an issue with this cobbled mess...

I have a question about springs though. I've been looking at Napa's springs for 86 b350 with 4k lb axle and theres an option for with rv package and without. With rv seems to be same dimensions but higger spring rate. Im thinking to get the springs for the 4k lb axle w/o rv package for ride quality. Am I on the right track there? Ideas? Suggestions? If anyone has experience with the mid Dodge b350 springs I'd appreciate some insight? My van will be heavy but not class b motorhome heavy and lower center of gravity.
Posted By: Ram4ever Re: 78 Tradesman 200 work/camper van build - August 06th 2018 11:59 pm
Impressive work!

With that much rake it's going to interesting deciding just where a normal rest position should be!

I'm not at home with my parts books right now, but I think that Natural State had told me when he lowered his van that the lower control arms were all the same above 1/2 ton rating. I vaguely recall the upper arms were what changed the most between ratings. I'll look in my books when I get home this evening.

It might be worth giving Laura at ESPO Springs 'N Things a call to ask about those rear springs ratings. Super knowledgeable and friendly folks there, who specialize in suspension parts. She helped me when I uprated as high as I could on my B250. She likely has the shackle bushings if you still need them; be sure to ask.
Posted By: liftarc Re: 78 Tradesman 200 work/camper van build - August 07th 2018 1:19 am
It'd be great to find the shackle bushings, but out back I'm running the stock 78 b200 rear leaf springs with firestone rideright air springs to help out as needed. If I find that I need stiffer springs in the rear it will likely wait till my probably never gonna happen 4wd conversion happens. Up front is where I'm trying to decide between the severe duty coils and the extra stiff "rv package" springs. Either set adds two inches of compressed height to the front which together with matched 16" wheels and proper tires will address the rake and hopefully sit me pretty level with the permanent weight that will be installed, ie: interior/utilities/etc.

As far as control arms, idk about changes within model years but I know that after 78, probably in 79 or 80, the mounting of the upper control arms completely changed from eccentric lobed bolts for alignment adjustment to a sliding block type system. I havent yet compared the arms themselves to see if the early bushings will drop into the mid arms and enable swapping from the arms out but I do plan to. The lower arms are also completely different between a 78 b200 and an 86 b350. Obviously the later b350 lca's are much beefier with a larger mounting bolt, larger bushing, more metal overall and a more reinforced design.

On another note, got the beginnings of my cabin electrical system: a smart battery isolator, a marine and flash rated disconnect, a really slick partitioned 12 circuit fuse panel, a little usb charger/ digital voltmeter/12v socket panel, a lexan sheet to mount this hot mess and about 20ft of 0 gauge neoprene jacket welding lead. Need some amp hours and photovoltaics..... Also need to start figuring out interior insulation and paneling.....

Anyone interested in my original seats? 2 low back buckets and one fixed bench all matched brown vinyl in really good shape save for a few blemishes in top rear of the bench. I can post pics
Posted By: Ram4ever Re: 78 Tradesman 200 work/camper van build - August 07th 2018 4:59 pm
I pulled out my dealer's manual, which does cover 1978.

There was only one upper control arm for 1978, though there were two ball joint packages; a heavy duty and non heavy duty.

The lower control arm has two options; a heavy duty package, and a non heavy duty package with reinforcement. That one has me puzzled; I'd think a reinforcement would go on a heavy arm, but that's the way it's listed in the parts manual!

As for front springs, it gets rather complicated.

The 3492934 1400/1570 pound spring is used on B2 & B3 vans, as is the 3492935 1475/1645 pound spring. Then there is a 3492936 1500/1720 pound spring, which for some reason doesn't indicate which vehicle, then you get into B3 only springs. There is the 4032442 1575/1725 pound spring, which is only for use with 8.75-16.5 tires, then the 3496341 1725/1915 pound spring, and the 4086492 1850/2050 pound spring.

There is a note which explains that "Spring ratings will now be listed as Pad/Ground Capacity" - so that's what those pounds numbers mean.

Any of those springs will fit stock control arms. I'm not sure what you'll encounter when mixing and matching parts over that 1978 threshold in production.

For 1979 and up, they listed three different capacities of upper control arms, 3300, 3600, & 4000 pound, along with separate bushing packages and jounce bumpers rated for each arm.

The 1979 and up springs had different numbers and ratings than the 1978, although some of the 79 model year which were produced up through December of 1978 springs are listed on the 1979 page.

There is a break point in capacity in front suspensions where up to 3300 pounds uses 5-lug wheels, while the 3600 and 4000 pound use 8 lug wheels.

There were three 1979 and up lower control arms. The 4210464-5 for B1 & B2 vans, and the 4164464-5 for 3600 pound axles and the 4036808-9 for 4000 pound axles. There is no specific mention made of B3 vans.

There is a free Russian website which has pdf copies of a Chrysler dealer's parts manual. You have to hunt up the correct section; there are other vehicles listed too. These vans are considered light trucks. The manuals only cover 81-96, (though I've found some potions go into the 2000's) but are well worth having for research purposes; you can find the correct parts nomenclature and part numbers, which helps when locked in stare down matches with Chrysler dealers parts counterpersons, or when performing searches on Parts Voice, for instance.

Http://oskin.ru/pub/chrysler-dodge/manuals/Chrysler_Service_Parts_Catalog/CD1/81-96/

Hope all that helps firm up your picture of what was available.

BTW, those lowback seats you have are quite desirable! You should list them in the for sale forum.
Posted By: liftarc Re: 78 Tradesman 200 work/camper van build - August 08th 2018 1:09 am
Thank you Ram4ever for the detailed reply!

In looking for aftermarket replacement coil springs I've seen that there are typically 4 options, 2 at the roughly 11" compressed height and 2 at roughly 13". Of the 2 at 13" one is 7/16" taller uncompressed and slightly stiffer but otherwise the same. I'm thinking to go with the softer 13" springs which are Moog part no 7226.

My main concern at this point is if my camber will be able to adjust within spec. I may be creating an issue with the haphazardly mismatched parts but I'll figure it out. I'm not afraid of welding the 86 b350 style upper control arm mounts in if necessary, I'd rather not burn the time but we'll see....
Posted By: Ram4ever Re: 78 Tradesman 200 work/camper van build - August 13th 2018 6:16 am
It might be worth sending a PM to Wrcsixeight; he had taken measurements, researched and replaced his somewhat later model B van front springs, and perhaps would be willing to add his insight to the picture. I recall he replaced the rubber spring isolation pads with some he liked well enough to get me on board and buy the same.
Posted By: wrcsixeight Re: 78 Tradesman 200 work/camper van build - August 13th 2018 7:01 am
My 89 B250 originally had springs with the diameter the same as Moog 7270.

I upgraded to the Moog 7272, I was afraid they would be too stiff, they are not.

The 1/2 ton v6 came with Moog 7268, 3/4 7270 and th3 B350 1 tons came with 7272, as far as I know.



I used moog 160037 coil spring isolators

https://www.amazon.com/Moog-K160037-Coil-Spring-Insulator/dp/B002M6J5MO
Posted By: Ram4ever Re: 78 Tradesman 200 work/camper van build - August 14th 2018 10:19 pm
Thanks for jumping in Wrcsixeight! It's great to gather all this detailed information in one spot for future researchers.
Posted By: liftarc Re: 78 Tradesman 200 work/camper van build - August 18th 2018 2:41 am
Here is the info I've gathered on Moog springs for Dodge vans. The height is shown as compressed-uncompressed. I'm sure compressed height varies a small amount based on actual curb weight and maybe other factors. I don't fully understand load rating vs spring rate, how one can be higher on one spring and the other higher on another.... crazy

7172:
0.82" bar dia
11.0-12.5" height
4" id
1525# load
1043# rate

7172s:
0.84" bar dia
11.0-12.91" height
4" id
2026# load
1067# rate

7270:
0.81" bar dia
11.25-13.94" height
3.99" id
2264# load
855# rate

7272:
0.87" bar dia
11.25-13.8" height
4" id
2659# load
962# rate

7268:
0.78" bar dia
11.27-13.72" height
4" id
1888# load
748# rate

7226:
0.9" bar dia
13.13-14.65" height
4" id
1725# load
1144# rate

7226s:
0.9" bar dia
13.12-15.09" height
4" id
2224# load
1133# rate

I got 7226 springs and 160037 isolators. I want the additional height to clear tires I already have and with plans for a radius arm/coil spring 4x4 conversion later on, building a kingpin dana 60 off a 92 Cummins truck and I have a first gen A518/NP241 combo in the yard.
Posted By: Ram4ever Re: 78 Tradesman 200 work/camper van build - August 18th 2018 5:59 am
Dynamite info! Thanks for collecting and sharing all that.

Several of those springs are quite light, like would be used on B100 vans.

Here's a shot at explaining how the ratings work:

The spring rate is a standard for comparison; It's just how much weight is required to compress a spring by 1". On a 1725 pound spring with an 1144 rate, it should take 1144 pounds to compress by 1".

A spring can have a linear or non-linear compression. Sometimes you can tell to look at them, such as if some of the coils have a different diameter or spacing, it's apt to be non-linear.

If it's got linear response, it would take 2288 (1144x2) to compress the 1725 pound spring by 2". Note: that doesn't necessarily mean the spring can survive 2288 pounds! Pay attention to the load figure for the max. Exceeding the max usually won't break these heavy springs, but if you really overdo it they might not return to their original length.

If it's a non-linear spring, by way of example you might see more compression at lower loads, (a softer/spongier ride) followed by substantially increasing stiffness, such as 1.5" at 1144 pounds then 2.0" at 2288 pounds. This sort of response to loading can be plotted out as a primitive curve with the several data points.

When I used to do calibration of physical test equipment in Engineering labs, the asphalt plants were typically required to have a massive test spring to use as a sanity check for the integrity of their test machines if they measured "unique results" on any asphalt samples used in public roads. It was eye-opening just how little corrosion it took on a spring to really mess up its performance. Barely even enough to be visible. Even with epoxy paint on them, they were typically stored in wood boxes with oiled rags. Epoxy paint or powder coating are your friends at keeping your springs happy and healthy! I'm pretty sure Moog powder coats theirs as a matter of course.
Posted By: wrcsixeight Re: 78 Tradesman 200 work/camper van build - August 18th 2018 7:20 am
If My Moog7272's were powder coated, it is the worst powder coating that ever powdered any coat in the history of powdered coats.

Mine were all banged up in the shipping box as they had absolutly no protection from each other in that box. P prepped and then painted up the banged up area with Black appliance epoxy.

The leading edges of my 5/6/7? year old Moog springs are all rusty, as if I were driving 100 miles an hour on the beach chasing a fleet of vehicles doing the same speed for a couple hundred miles.

Posted By: Ram4ever Re: 78 Tradesman 200 work/camper van build - August 18th 2018 3:35 pm
Powder coat quality does vary widely; some is far better at chip resistance, others at weathering from sun and rain. Some isn't very colorfast. There are some, like the Harbor Freight stuff, which decently washes away during extended outdoor exposure.

The springs I got from Espo Springs 'n Things were pretty heavily powder coated, though no effort was made to touch up the spots where the hangers contacted them, which were bare. They're going to see epoxy paint as touch up for sure!

They came banging into each other in the shipping box too, with no form of padding in the box. Perhaps that's par for the course? Shame if it is.

I'm not certain how many flex cycles powder coat on a coil spring might go through before it builds up enough microcracks to allow corrosion to begin. Probably it's a direct function of coating thickness. Same applies to paint; too thick and it wants to peel up like cracked mud. Powder coat is a plastic, so it will flex some, and with few exceptions it's highly non-porous, unlike many paints. I actually like both, though so far powder coat has proven far tougher than the epoxy paint for my undercarriage components.

That being said, I did use heavy coats of epoxy paint on my super rusty original springs after a phosphoric acid bath (they were already messed up anyway...) and it's still intact after multiple years outdoors. There's been very few encounters with rocks though; I mostly avoid back roads.
Posted By: wrcsixeight Re: 78 Tradesman 200 work/camper van build - August 18th 2018 8:01 pm
Whatever came on my Moog 7272 springs, could be removed with a thumbnail. It was more like sprayed on plastidip than anything resembling a powdercoat, and I actually wished I used that instead of the appliance epoxy.

Ram4ever, your New springs are not yet installed, go dig your thumbnail into them, and I bet you will find some black substance under your fingernail and some bare metal on the coil itself.

And now you get to curse me, as no doubt you will strip your new coil springs of whatever coating was applied, and powder coat them purple.
Posted By: liftarc Re: 78 Tradesman 200 work/camper van build - August 30th 2018 10:47 pm
I decided to skip the cobbled mismatch of control arms and ball joints and go straight to the 4wd conversion I wanted to do eventually.

I've got a kingpin d60 from a 92 Dodge truck, an A518/NP241 trans and t case from a 92 Dodge Ramcharger and will be building a radius arm setup using parts from Ruffstuff Specialties and Ballistic Fabrication. I will use the Moog springs I just got and modify the Ballistic radius arm mounts to accept their square cut bottoms. I'm planning to use a traditional panhard bar instead of the odd dual panhard setup found on the old Pathfinder conversions. Hoping to keep the shocks inside the coils but we'll see.

I will also fab up an engine x member that will give more clearance for the diff and stiffen the unibody better than the stock unit. Thinking 1/2" plate and 1/4" wall 2x4 rectangle tubing but I haven't got that worked out yet.

I've looked at how Pathfinder used to do their conversions, considered the shortcomings and cost cutting of their production setup, and decided I'd much rather build a one off that is functionally superior than try to track down an old VanCharger and attempt to salvage it's mostly Ford parts.

This should only take forever at the pace I'm able to get crap done back home but parts are in the mail so no turning back now.... worms
Posted By: liftarc Re: 78 Tradesman 200 work/camper van build - February 07th 2019 5:29 pm
Change of plans on account of the camp fire......

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Posted By: OVANNER Re: 78 Tradesman 200 work/camper van build - February 07th 2019 5:36 pm
Wow that sucks! Glad you are OK
Posted By: liftarc Re: 78 Tradesman 200 work/camper van build - February 07th 2019 6:16 pm
Thank you, OVANNER, my family and I just barely got out safely, was a hell of an experience.

New van is a 77 Tradesman B300 with a 2bbl 360 and a 727. Torn between putting in a 440/727 that I already have or a Magnum 360/518 overdrive trans that I don't have.

Anyone have suggestions on pulling a big block from a 77 rv? Thinking I'll have to pull out the core supports and drop the k member to get it out, carcass of rv is scrap....
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