Vanning.com logo
Boxdin
Site Navigation


Advertisements
Recent Posts
Printed circuit board
by CatFish - April 18th 2024 8:04 pm
1986 Ford E55 LRP 4x4 van
by newkirkinc1 - April 18th 2024 7:03 pm
Crazy mods
by frscke1 - April 18th 2024 6:17 pm
1987 G20 Gypsy
by 1983 G20 Van - April 18th 2024 5:18 pm
1993 Chevy G20 wheel width options
by MufflerMan Mike - April 18th 2024 4:05 pm
Featured Links


Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Re: My head is about to explode from trying to figure this all out!
wrcsixeight #755837 January 15th 2020 12:10 am
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 81
C
Ceejus Offline OP
journeyman
OP Offline
journeyman
C
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 81


If i run this Separator, when the van is turned off, will it only draw on the secondary battery? I understand it combining them when running or if the main battery is low. I just don't want to be drawing from my main battery, as well as the secondary battery.



I need one of these, or the PD9260.

I need a good/great battery.

Quality battery cables.

I have a couple of good multimeters with amperage capability. can i throw them across the battery terminals to check and see what amperage they're taking or do i need an actual permanent hard wired gauge?

AdSense long
Re: My head is about to explode from trying to figure this all out!
Ceejus #755865 January 15th 2020 1:18 pm
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,847
Likes: 42
W
veteran
Offline
veteran
W
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,847
Likes: 42
That bussman separator will not prevent the original engine battery from being drawn dead by anything which is currently connected to it, like dome lights, and dash stereo, headlights, and any existing 12v powerports ciggy plug ports and existing interior lighting. All overnight loads , like any stock interior lighting and 12v power ports, must have their wiring attached/transferred to the additional house/Aux battery.

If the prospect of switching the existing circuits listed above, from the engine battery, to the house battery is not desirable, then one can consider just stuffing the biggest possible battery which will fit in the current location, and carry a 'jumper' battery for if one draws it so low it can no longer start the engine. An Odyssey or Northstar AGM battery would be better than a Lifeline in such duty with those super high cranking amps. I could just barely stuff a group 31 battery in the stock engine location of my 89 dodge, but a group 27 fit easily and a group 34 is what it is spec'd for. Bigger heavier batteries are desirable. Consider modifying the battery tray to accept a larger battery too.

The Bussman separator, combines engine and house batteries when it senses charging voltages, when the engine is running, or if you have a charger connected to the engine battery. That particular model is single sense, and would not connect the two batteries in parallel when there is a charging source applied directly to the house/Aux battery. Here is a 'dual' sense/ bidirectional model which will bring the engine starting battery to the same charging voltages as the depleted house battery when PD9XX is charging house battery, which could overcharge engine battery. depending on its state of charge when the PD92xx is attached to depleted house battery. It might be good for it, or just overcharge it and dry it out by causing it to use more water.

https://www.amazon.com/Bussmann-RB-...mp;psc=1&refRID=0AQRB1DXKVTZZA9FP813


Digital multimeters with an ammeter function are good only upto 10 amps in most cases, and one needs to open the circuit, and place the multimeter leads inbetween battery and charging source, in order to measure amperage. Basicallyall the current has to flow on the 18awg meter leads, and if it exceeds 10 amps then the fuse inside the multimeter blows, and hopefully that is the only thing that blows.

Clamp on Ammeters are a full function multimeter, but one can open a clamp place it over one wire and see how much current is flowing through it. They are about 35$+ but great tools to have. Here is an example, not a personal product recommendation.
https://www.amazon.com/Uni-T-B4Q094...on+ammeter&qid=1579106173&sr=8-2

They are great for seeing loads/ amperage draw/ wattage draw of specific devices, but have to be clamped over the + or the - wire/cable, not both together, and will also work to see how much current the battery is accepting from a charging source.

A hardwired ammeter is of course easier to use, and cheaper, but is pretty much stuck measuring just one cable.

Lifeline Offers a larger 12v battery than the GPL-31XT and that is the GPL-30HT, it has a slightly bigger foorprint than the group 31, but is an inch and a half taller and has 25 more amp hours of capacity, 150 total. Do get the PD9260 if you decide on this or any larger AGM.

Genuinedealz.com will make up custom cables with top quality components and crimped with proper tools, but you need to order the correct lengths. use wire no thinner than 8awg if wiring up the bussman separator. 6AWG would be better, 4 awg better than that and 2AWG is approaching overkill. As said in a previous post the Voltage regulator is the biggest limiting factor in battery recharging. If it decides 13.6 is fine and dandy then the battery will recharge ~66% slower than if it decides 14.7v is what is required. Even if it decides 14.4v is allowed for the first few minutes, and most do, it does not mean it will maintain 14.4+ the whole time. Soon as it gets hot or a certain amount of time passes the voltage/ electrical pressure will drop. All vehicles will vary in this regard. A Digital voltmeter on teh dashboard which can show the difference between 12.8 and 14.5 is great to have. An analog gauge where one can barely see the difference between 12 and 14 is pretty much useless.

There are DC to DC chargers, which address the issue of the vehicle's voltage regulator dropping to mid 13v too quickly. This is the cheapest product currently offered, to my knowledge and I have no personal experience with it:

If one employs the product linked below, then no battery separator is needed as it is a battery separator and takes the vehicle voltage and steps it up, or Down, to better recharge the depleted house battery, while the engine is running, but this one is limited to 40 amps maximum.

https://www.renogy.com/12v-dc-to-dc-on-board-battery-charger/?keyword=%2Bdc+%2Bto+%2Bdc+%2Bcharger&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=batterycharger&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIudKWj4uG5wIVUPDACh0j8wRGEAAYASAAEgKBu_D_BwE

There are other similar products made by sterling and Ctek but they are 2x or more the price

If one makes up their own battery cables the quality of the terminations is paramount, and the hammer crimpers might make solid mechanical connections, they usually make poor highly resistive electrical connections, which not only slow charging and can waste battery power or charger power as heat, they can be unsafe. Autoparts store cables mostly come with stamped steel ring terminals with a hole drilled through it which should be avoided in anything but an emergency. Hydraulic crimpers can now be had cheaply so one can make their own cables, but there are still some issues on the end users skill in using them properly:

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=hydraulic+crimpers&ref=nb_sb_noss_1

The following article is a good read, but understand this is wiring that would pass coast guard/ABYC inspections and might be considered overkill for an on road vehicle. Understand it is 'Ideal' and you can get away will less, to a point.

https://marinehowto.com/making-your-own-battery-cables/

Welding supply stores can usually make up cables on the spot, and welding cable is generally way more flexible than other cables of the same thickness. Might need some red heat shrink on some of them to identify + from -.

4d and 8d battery sizes are larger than the gpl-30HT but are back breakers.

https://lifelinebatteries.com/products/marine-batteries/gpl-4dl/

https://lifelinebatteries.com/products/marine-batteries/gpl-8dl/

Lifeline's tech manual is a great source of information about lead acid batteries:

http://lifelinebatteries.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/6-0101-Rev-E-Lifeline-Technical-Manual.pdf

https://rollsbattery.com/public/docs/user_manual/Rolls_Battery_Manual.pdf

These two Manuals^ are the best sources of info about the care and feeding of lead acid batteries on the internet, in my opinion.


The marine how to sight has a lot of good info, which can make your head explode, or perhaps is written in a manner that can prevent that happening to you:

I recommend perusing these:

https://marinehowto.com/automotive-alternators-vs-deep-cycle-batteries/

https://marinehowto.com/making-your-own-battery-cables/

https://marinehowto.com/marine-wire-termination/

https://marinehowto.com/what-is-a-deep-cycle-battery/











Last edited by wrcsixeight; January 15th 2020 1:23 pm.
Re: My head is about to explode from trying to figure this all out!
wrcsixeight #756405 January 30th 2020 11:56 pm
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 81
C
Ceejus Offline OP
journeyman
OP Offline
journeyman
C
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 81
Originally Posted by wrcsixeight
That bussman separator will not prevent the original engine battery from being drawn dead by anything which is currently connected to it, like dome lights, and dash stereo, headlights, and any existing 12v powerports ciggy plug ports and existing interior lighting. All overnight loads , like any stock interior lighting and 12v power ports, must have their wiring attached/transferred to the additional house/Aux battery.

The Bussman separator, combines engine and house batteries when it senses charging voltages, when the engine is running, or if you have a charger connected to the engine battery. That particular model is single sense, and would not connect the two batteries in parallel when there is a charging source applied directly to the house/Aux battery.


I plan on leaving the factory original battery connections/accessories alone and as is. I'm only going to wire the additional items to the secondary battery. So am i correct in thinking that this separator will not allow anything wired to the secondary battery to draw on the engine battery, or will i need some sort of switch to disconnect the secondary battery from the engine battery?

Will it allow me to use the secondary battery to jump the engine battery?

And if i read correctly, it will allow me to use an external charger to charge the secondary battery without danger of it also charging or over charging the engine battery.

Does it just automatically connect the 2 batteries on start up, or does it alternate sending current to one, then to the other?

Will i need a fused link on the positive cable before and/or after the secondary battery?

Re: My head is about to explode from trying to figure this all out!
Ceejus #756424 January 31st 2020 6:05 pm
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,847
Likes: 42
W
veteran
Offline
veteran
W
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,847
Likes: 42
http://www.cooperindustries.com/con...s/bus-ele-pp-10103-battery-separator.pdf

The 1314 unidirectional separator will combine the batteries when the engine battery hits 13.2 volts via alternator or charging surce attached to engine battery, and disconnect them when voltage falls, after engine shutdown, to 12.8v. It does not alternate between the two.

In my experience after engine starting, even with a well depleted engine battery, the voltage quickly hits 13.2v so I'd expect the batteries to be paralleled nearly instantly, or at least very quickly after engine starting.

How long it takes combined battery voltage, after driving, to fall the the 12.8v threshold, where it disconnects the batteries, is dependent on many variables, chief of which are battery state of charge, temperature, and any loads on the batteries.

the 1315 bi directional isolator combines the batteries when EITHER battery hits 13.2v, and disconnects them when their combined voltage falls to 12.8v.

The Bidirectional isolator is good for when the engine starting battery will be seeing loads, like from the dash stereo and dome lights and 12v powerports up there. If the engine battery is not discharged much at all, then the bidirectional relay might overcharge it, if it takes a long time to fully charge the house/aux battery.

The link says if engine battery is lower than Aux battery it will automatically combine them for starting. I was unaware of this feature.

No other isolation is required, and this isolator and most every other one, can be put near the house battery, it does not have to go in engine compartment.

Fusing.....

a large fuse, capable of passing starter motor current (~140 to 180 amps) should be within 7 inches of the battery (+), according to ABYC codes, american yacht and boat council. Some might consider this overkill in an automotive application.

If one stacks another ring terminal on the alternator(+) output stud, then there is already a fuse between engine battery and alternator. So ATL(+) to bussman, to Aux battery, there needs to be a fuse within 7 inches of the (+) post of Aux battery. This wiring method is usually a shorter path, circuit wise and distance wise, compared to taking power from engine starting battery.

Stacking another ring terminal on alternator (+) output stud is not always simply accomplished.

If one decides instead, to take power from the engine battery, and most will do, then the original alternator to engine battery cable has to take the load of not only the engine starting battery, but also the depleted Aux battery. This cabling was never intended to carry this much additional current. It could blow the existing fusible link/fuse, if not upgraded. If it does not blow the fuse there will be more voltage drop on that cabling, and voltage drop slows battery charging

If one does take power for isolator from engine battery, then there needs to be a fuse within 7 inches of the engine battery and again on the Aux battery, whereas if one takes power from the alternator (+ stud) then one need only one fuse at Aux battery as the original cable from alternator to engine battery is already fused.

The shorter circuit from alternator to common Aux battery location, means less copper and higher voltage reaching depleted Aux battery, which means faster recharging, but can also mean the alternator gets hotter faster and wears out sooner.

With either the 1314 or the 1315 isolator/separator in place, any loads placed on house battery will not be able to drain engine battery. No other product is required. Anything wired to original engine battery will still be able to draw down the engine battery, and apparently once it drawn 0.3v less than aux battery, will draw off the Aux battery too due to that engine start assist feature in the documentation. So it looks like leaving the headlights on engine off, can also draw down the house battery.

Bussman/cooper is re-labelling a Surepower 1314 or 1315 device. they might be had for cheaper elsewhere without that bussman name.

There are dozens of similar products on the market, and i have not researched all of them nor know if they employ a time delay, or use voltage sensing, or some combination of both in order to decide when and how they parallel or disconnect the batteries from each other.

One can fuse the house battery, at the house battery if they have a few more inches of height clearance:
https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Sys...d=1580506205&s=automotive&sr=1-2

Note that links does not include the fuse itself, and they are not inexpensive. ANL fuses and holders can be gotten cheaper but require more wire terminations which introduces more potential failure points and voltage dropping resistance.

Fuses are to protect the wiring, so the proper fuse size is for the gauge of the wiring it is protecting. A battery fuse is more a catastrophic fuse, say in case the cable is pinched in an accident between frame members. One can overfuse and still be protected from catastrophic shorts of thick cables, and most vehicles do not have a fuse between starter and battery.

I am not saying the fuse necessity, can be ignored, though it seems many auto manufacturers do exactly that. Protect all (+) cables in some split loom and protect against chafing and vibration. (-) too, but these shorting to ground is not going to cause a fire.

A question you are sure to have in the not so distant future regards grounding of the house battery.

yes, one can run a thick cable from aux battery to nearby metal frame. When one does this all charging current to house battery must flow from original engine battery to firewall to battery or frame or battery to engine grounds. Frame engine and firewall grounds are the cause of many electrical gremlins.

It is my opinion that it is best, to run two cables to the alternator, from Aux battery, with isolator and fuse in the middle on the (+). If the alternator has a negative output stud already, use that, or a mounting bolt otherwise.

If one wants to use a nearby ground from house battery to metal frame, then I advise running a new ground cable from frame to alternator (-) stud or mounting bolt. If they do not want to do that then upgrade the original engine battery to engine ground cable, and might as well upgrade the engine battery to firewall ground at the same time.

A big Lifeline AGM battery, well depleted, can demand more than 100 amps from the alternator,IF, the cabling is thick(4awg or thicker) and the voltage regulator is seeking mid to high 14's and the cold 100 amp+ rated alternator is actually capable of delivering that much amperage at higher rpm, which is unlikely.

They have 200 amp models of isolator available but I think unless you go crazt with 1awg or thicker wire and more than one gpl-31xt battery, it is unnecessary.

Things can really be taken to extremes with systems such as these, and even the best alternator charging system is not going to defy physics.

80% charged to 100% charged cannot be accomplished in less than 3.5 hours, and that assumes mid 14's charging voltage is held that entire time, and the battery is still healthy. It takes longer when the battery is less healthy, and it could be significantly longer than that if the battery has seen many partial state of charge cycles, where it was discharged again without having ever reached full charge. I've witnessed that 80% to 100% take 7 hours, on a healthy battery that cycled 10 times only reaching 85% before the next discharge cycle began.

Lead acid batteries, which includes Gel and AGM, ideally, for maximum longevity and performance, ALWAYS want to be 100% charged, and kept relatively cool.

This basically means, if one wants good or better battery longevity, that one requires either solar, or plug in charging sources, which can have enough time at a high enough voltage, to actually bring the depleted battery to a true full state of charge.

So if one has enough battery power to get through a 3 day weekend, then one can forgo the battery isolator for house battery charging and plug in an adequate charging source on their return.

If one does not have enough battery capacity to meet their 3 day overnight needs, then alternator charging is highly desirable, and as many amps flowing into that depleted battery, as possible, is also desirable.

bateries below 80% state of charge can accept huge charging currents and get back to 80% state of charge quickly,with high amperage, but that 80% to 100% is what takes no less than 3.5 hours.

Don't discount the portable solar panel set-ups either. They can do a lot to replenish batteries and take stress off other charging systems.

I recently measured the output from a 100 watt flex panel On top of my windshield and then again behind it, facing south at noon, at the same angle, no shadows. 87 watts on top of windshield, 43 watts behind it.

My fridge compressor uses 32 watts........and runs 15 minutes per 60......

Re: My head is about to explode from trying to figure this all out!
Ceejus #756433 January 31st 2020 7:04 pm
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 81
C
Ceejus Offline OP
journeyman
OP Offline
journeyman
C
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 81
So for best house battery charging, the wiring would be as follows for the + cable for the house battery: From alt. + stud, to isolator to fuse, to house battery + post. This option is harder on the alternator.

For easier load on the alternator, but not as good of charging for the house battery, you'd come from the + post on the engine battery, to the isolator, to the fuse, to house battery + post.

I'm starting to wonder if i might be okay with a stand alone battery, and the good charger. I guess i could try that first and see how it works out.

What are your thoughts on pass through connectors like these, for running the battery cables from front to rear?
https://www.bluesea.com/products/category/27/Feed_Through_Connectors

Re: My head is about to explode from trying to figure this all out!
Ceejus #756457 February 01st 2020 5:40 pm
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,847
Likes: 42
W
veteran
Offline
veteran
W
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,847
Likes: 42
BlueSea$ products are generally very good, but I have no hands on experience with those specific pass throughs.

Do check what size hole need to be drilled for them, then price a step drill capable of drilling that diameter a hole through sheetmetal.

My personal strategy is to add as few connections as possible, for minimal added resistance and failure points, So I am in favor of running a cable through a properly sized rubber grommett in the firewall/floor, then hydraulically crimping on a terminal, but either method works.

You could certainly see if one battery is enough to power what you need for a weekend outing, then put it on the good PD9260 charger at home. You do not want to drain it dead dead though, which is about 10.5 volts under no load.

If you find yourself, that first outing, needing more battery power, you can run some quality jumper cables to the Aux battery, and idle the engine parked for 10 to perhaps 15 minutes or so. Much longer than that, and the alternator will be in danger of overheating.

Re: My head is about to explode from trying to figure this all out!
Ceejus #756539 February 03rd 2020 9:27 pm
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 81
C
Ceejus Offline OP
journeyman
OP Offline
journeyman
C
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 81
I have a few step bits and some good sheet metal hole punches, so i should be good there. I think i may buy the battery and charger, and go from there. I can always add the other stuff later, if needed, even if i install interior.

Re: My head is about to explode from trying to figure this all out!
Ceejus #762925 June 28th 2020 5:38 pm
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 81
C
Ceejus Offline OP
journeyman
OP Offline
journeyman
C
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 81
Okay, I'm back! I'm finally back to looking at my options again after a brief hiatus. I'm thinking that i may just try the stand alone Lifeline group 27 battery and the charger that you recommended. My next question is this. I've been looking at switch panels to distribute power to each individual device. (Stereo, Some lighting and usb charging ports.) I can switch only the usb ports on, if that's all i need. Same with the lights, or the stereo. Or if i want, i can have them all on. My question is this. I was going to run the positive battery cable, to an automotive battery on/off switch, then to a distribution stud, to step down the wire size. From there, to the switch panel. Do i need to fuse that positive cable going into the switch panel, and if so, what amperage of fuse do i even need? Some of the panels i've looked at, have outgoing fuses going to to the end component, but nothing from the incoming power source.

Re: My head is about to explode from trying to figure this all out!
Ceejus #762926 June 28th 2020 5:43 pm
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 81
C
Ceejus Offline OP
journeyman
OP Offline
journeyman
C
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 81
I was looking at this thing, and thought that it could even take the place of the distribution stud and provide a fused input circuit to the switch panel. i know that the more crap i stick inline, the worse it is, but i want to provide protection for everything, also. Lol!

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product...ie=UTF8&smid=A254WBOY1FUDSE&th=1

Also, if you click on the $48.99 switch panel on the same link, that's the kind of switch panels that i've been looking at.

Last edited by Ceejus; June 28th 2020 5:47 pm.
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Astro, Ram4ever 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Donate


Upcoming Events
discovery
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 17 guests, and 6 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
drivestylish, MGCBBQ, rick74, Keithl, G10brett
12736 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
SDMickey 183
Wedgy 43
frscke1 31
CatFish 29
Forum Statistics
Forums68
Topics35,844
Posts538,453
Members12,737
Most Online177
May 8th, 2013

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4