Vanning.com logo
Boxdin
Site Navigation


Advertisements
Recent Posts
Had to buy it.
by Deathorvictory. January 26th 2020 2:16 pm
What Did You do To your Van Today?
by Wedgy. January 26th 2020 1:25 pm
Whats old is new again
by Wedgy. January 26th 2020 1:04 pm
78 dodge van front fender
by dartphil. January 26th 2020 12:44 pm
My 72 Dodge Chop Project
by Lee7673. January 26th 2020 12:09 pm
Van Names
by oldkid. January 26th 2020 9:25 am
Van Books
by kursed. January 25th 2020 4:45 pm
G20 Sliding door parts
by frscke1. January 25th 2020 2:11 pm
Tradewinds out of the dust
by lowriderBernd. January 25th 2020 12:18 pm
Featured Links
Vanning.Com is a an authorized Amsoil Dealer


Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
My head is about to explode from trying to figure this all out! #755554
January 07th 2020 9:17 am
January 07th 2020 9:17 am
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 70
Indianapolis, Indiana
C
Ceejus Offline OP
journeyman
Ceejus  Offline OP
journeyman
C
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 70
Indianapolis, Indiana
Hello everyone!
I'm looking at running a dual battery setup in my current build. I almost never camp anywhere that i can't plug into a power pole, but i'd love to have an option if needed. What i normally run when plugged in, is my AirSense 10 cpap, a small fan or space heater and phone charger. What I'm planning on wiring to run off the secondary battery, is a fused switch bank that will switch on power to a 2nd stereo with a couple of 6x9 speakers, some led lighting, a cig lighter to plug my cpap into and preferably a plug for a fan or small heater. All of this stuff will never be running at the same time. Realistically, the secondary battery will probably only ever be used to power the stereo and some lights for a bright and shine at a van event or show, and/or a light for me to see in the van when it's dark.

I'm new to this secondary battery stuff and have been reading as much as i can. What i can't find, is how to determine what battery to use, as far as amperage, etc. I understand i need a deep cycle battery, but that's about it. I'd prefer to NOT use a "flooded" battery, because it'll probably be housed inside the van at the rear, close to the things that it would be powering.

I'm also considering just getting one of the stand alone power packs for my cpap only, which would probably be cheaper than a great big bad ass battery to power that, plus all the other stuff. Plus, i could use it for other things also. I'm planning on grabbing this adapter for my cpap. CPAP converter

There's so much info out there, that it's kind of difficult to wrap my head around all of it! Lol!

From what i've been reading, it sounds like inverters are a huge power suck, unless i'm completely mistaken. But won't i need one to run a fan/heater?

I'm really hoping that wrcsixeight can enlighten me here, because it seems as though he's the electrical guru! Lol!

Last edited by Ceejus; January 07th 2020 11:24 am.
AdSense long
Re: My head is about to explode from trying to figure this all out! [Re: Ceejus] #755575
January 07th 2020 8:46 pm
January 07th 2020 8:46 pm
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,648
Wichita Falls, Texas
Starlord Offline
pooh-bah
Starlord  Offline
pooh-bah
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,648
Wichita Falls, Texas
The only thing that bothers me about your plans is a heater. A heater is like putting a direct short in your system and will kill your battery pretty quick. You could run a 12 volt fan. Check out the Buddy heaters, they are a propane heater and run on the little tanks (not sure if you would need to crack a window to vent it or not). The best inverters to run if you run one are pure sine wave...you can get them with various power drains on the system however, the better the inverter, the higher the price. As far as the batteries, the simplest thing is to check with reputable stereo shops, they can steer you to the best batteries that don't need venting for inside the vehicle use. Once upon a time I would have recommended Optima batteries but they aren't as good on quality as they once were (I do run one still for my stereo, I have it housed under the bed in the back of the van). Run a isolater to keep the draw off of your starting battery, there are several types for this purpose. Also make sure to run a heavy gauge wire to the back battery, not some dinky ass crap and I would fuse it too, once again, hit up a auto stereo shop for wire and fuse assembly. If you don't want to tackle the job yourself, have an auto stereo shop set the whole thing up.


2005 E350 Turbo Diesel
Why is it that when I press 1 for English, I still can not understand the person on the other end????
Re: My head is about to explode from trying to figure this all out! [Re: Starlord] #755579
January 07th 2020 11:06 pm
January 07th 2020 11:06 pm
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 70
Indianapolis, Indiana
C
Ceejus Offline OP
journeyman
Ceejus  Offline OP
journeyman
C
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 70
Indianapolis, Indiana
Originally Posted by Starlord
The only thing that bothers me about your plans is a heater. A heater is like putting a direct short in your system and will kill your battery pretty quick. You could run a 12 volt fan. Check out the Buddy heaters, they are a propane heater and run on the little tanks (not sure if you would need to crack a window to vent it or not). The best inverters to run if you run one are pure sine wave...you can get them with various power drains on the system however, the better the inverter, the higher the price. As far as the batteries, the simplest thing is to check with reputable stereo shops, they can steer you to the best batteries that don't need venting for inside the vehicle use. Once upon a time I would have recommended Optima batteries but they aren't as good on quality as they once were (I do run one still for my stereo, I have it housed under the bed in the back of the van). Run a isolater to keep the draw off of your starting battery, there are several types for this purpose. Also make sure to run a heavy gauge wire to the back battery, not some dinky ass crap and I would fuse it too, once again, hit up a auto stereo shop for wire and fuse assembly. If you don't want to tackle the job yourself, have an auto stereo shop set the whole thing up.


The heater was my main concern, also. The more i think about it, the only time I've ever used a heater, I had easy access to a power pole, because nobody wants to camp when it's cold. Lol! Realistically, that could be removed from the equation.

I've also been looking at some of the battery packs that are available I've found a 500w one that gets great reviews, that would be able to power my cpap for 3 or 4 days. If i do that, It would reduce the amount of secondary battery that i would need, also. Would be nice to not have to carry an extra item, though.

Re: My head is about to explode from trying to figure this all out! [Re: Ceejus] #755588
January 08th 2020 12:25 pm
January 08th 2020 12:25 pm
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,252
Connecticut
OVANNER Offline
pooh-bah
OVANNER  Offline
pooh-bah
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,252
Connecticut
How about purchasing one of those small Honda / Yamaha generators which are real quite and run forever?


Orange 1973 Dodge Shorty B-100

Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserve body,
but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up,
totally worn out, and proclaiming

"Wow What a Ride"

Johnny O
"O Vanners" of Connecticut! Since 1982

Re: My head is about to explode from trying to figure this all out! [Re: Ceejus] #755591
January 08th 2020 1:23 pm
January 08th 2020 1:23 pm
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,701
San Diego
W
wrcsixeight Offline
veteran
wrcsixeight  Offline
veteran
W
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,701
San Diego
This subject, and the systems planned/developed/implemented can be taken to extremes, and it is difficult to say what you absolutely need, vs what you can get away with.

The simplest cheapest thing would be to get a cheapo AGM battery, secure it properly, deplete it as needed, and simply charge it when one gets home and it lasts as long as it lasts and ris replaced when it cannot meed ones weekend needs.

The opposite end of the spectrum would be a high quality deep cycle AGM with optimized solar, alternator and plug in charging sources in order to quickly and fully recharge the battery promptly, to full.

The thing with lead acid batteries, is they are like a thick skinned balloon, and if they are not kept near fully inflated, then that skin thickens, shrinks and develops pinholes. One can deflate them but one better be able to get them back to nearly fully inflated, to prevent that premature reduction in capacity and performance.

What most people do not understand is that it takes a long time to fully charge a battery. A Lead acid battery at 80% stats of charge cannot be truly fully charged in less than 3.5 hours. Those 3.5 hours also assume the battery ius being held at higher voltages by the charging source. One can have a 300 amp chromed recently polished alternator, but if the voltage regulator is commanding the alternator to make enough amperage to maintain 13.6v, then charging is 2/3 slower than if it were asking for 14.7v.

Voltage is electrical pressure and lead acid batteries accept as much amperage as they want(up to the limits of the amperage/charging source), at the voltage reaching the battery terminals. So big thick wire can obviously carry more amperage and allow higher voltages to reach the battery allowing it to charge faster, but when the voltage regulator says 13.7v is fine and dandy, the 50% charged battery is charging 2/3 slower than if the voltage regulator was asking the alternator to make enough amperage to bring system voltage upto 14.7v.

So a big capable alternator can be neutered, by its voltage regulation, whether the regulator is internal or external, and whether it is affected by heat or by an engine computer. So many people start their engines, take a voltage reading, see 14+ volts and assume this is the voltage sought and held, always, but this is not true.

Optimizing the charging systems can be taken to extremes, and even then, ideal/optimal recharging still requires the input of a human withmeasuring tools and experience in order to figure out what voltage to hold and more importantly, for how long to hold it.

Automatic plug in 'smart chargers' are in general, not designed to quickly and fully charge batteries, they are designed to never ever overcharge a battery. Each battery will be different in how long it needs to be held at high charging voltages, and its needs will change depending on the state of charge, how many cycles it has accumulated, how many cycles since it was last truly fully charged, its temperature, and a bunch of other factors. Yet all these 'smart' chargers employ a one size fits all approach, and one size fits all is more like one size fits none.

Now any charging occurring on a depleted battery is better than a undercharged battery left being undercharged, but returning a depleted battery to 100% full is twice as good for the battery as returning it to 97% full, and the fact is, most smart chargers will stop charging the battery and flash the ' full charged ' green light at anywhere from 87 to 92% charged. Most chargers will revert to a lower 'float' voltage at this point, and charging still occurs at float voltages, but it is very very slow, and an older battery simply will never get truly fully charged at float voltages, and a newer healthy battery might need a week held at 13.2v in order to reach a true 100% state of charge at float voltage, and this is when the charger has quit at 92% state of charge.

The thing to keep in mind here is that a lead acid battery has a shelf life anyway. One can never intentionally discharge it, keep it 95 to 100% charged and it will still have a limited lifespan. Is it worth it to optimize recharging systems in order to get maximum lifespan, when the battery is really only needed a few weekends each year? In most cases, not. It is those who are more or less living in from their vehicles who need to do much much more, take more steps in order to not only recharge enough to meet the next nights electrical needs, but also to stretch that balloon back to its original fully inflated size as often as possible, so they do not have to replace their batteries every few months and deal with the hassles of not having enough juice and dealing with trying to warranty batteries.


I have No experience with powering a Cpap, but have read a good amount on the topic, and if one does not use the humidifier, then the actual power consumption is fairly low.

12v powerports/ciggy plugs, while highly recognizable and ubiquitous connectors worldwide, are a horrid and unreliable electrical connection that wastes electricity by heating the socket and plug, and this gets worse with age and the amount of wattage they are asked to pass. Anything over 60 watts and they will become issues sooner rather than later. They are so convenient, and ubiquitous, that somethng better is not always realistic to implement. I use Anderson powerpoles, but these do not have internal fuses and require some crimping and perhaps soldering skills and perhaps even special crimping tools in order to set up properly.

USB charging is a simple task, and there is no need to use an inverter to accomplish this. The Inverter is often looked as as the solution to everything electrical, but they really excell at allowing the user to overdepleted a battery, quickly.

Battery capacity can be measured in watt hours, or amp hours. Watt hours are a battery method, but the standard measure of battery capacity is amp hours. A fully charged, healthy 100 amp hour group 27 battery( ~6.5 wide x 12.5" long by 9.25 tall and 55 to 70lbs) can power a 5 amp load for 20 hours until battery voltage falls to 10.5 volts, which is considered fully discharged. This does not mean it can power a 20 amp load for 5 hours before voltage falls to 10.5v due to Peukerts law, which basically says the higher the load the less capacity the battery will have. That 100Ah battery can likely power a 20 amp load for 3.5 hours, but it depends on specific the battery and its temperature.

Very few batteries will have their capacity measured in watt hours. If a battery is marketed as a 500 watt battery, it is marketed to the stereo boom boom crowd.

I have one such battery marked as a 600 watt battery.
It is an 18 amp hour Chinese AGM battery that can be bought without the '600 watt' sticker, for 32$. This same size battery often is employed inside the lead acid jumper packs. I have actually started my week cold 318 engine, in warm ambient temperatures using only this battery, all by itself, last year when it was newer, but it barely started it. It was an experiment just to see its capabilities.

Beware of marketing, of chargers and batteries, and while I am sure there are very competent stereo installers/shops, I've also been flabbergasted by the overwhelming ignorance combined with the self assured arrogance, by some of their employees. They often use Aluminum wire, perhaps copper clad aluminum, and any electrical terminal which uses a set screw to crush stranded wire within it, is a problem waiting to happen. Proper crimping requires proper tools and the skills to use them, as does proper soldering, and the crimp vs solder debates are endless on the internet with people shouting their opinions as absolute irrefutable fact, and the longer they have held that opinion, the more factual it becomes, in their mind.

There is also a bunch of 'I have this product, therefore you should too!" but in reality this often means, I was sold this product, employed it, it has not yet failed, to my knowledge, therefore help me feel better about my ignorance by doing the same thing.

I Hate recommending products that I do not have personal experience with, and i hate parrots and parrotting others opinions, but there are obviously some opinions worth parrotting, those who have experience.

Its hard to know what to actually recommend for or against without knowing how far you want to take it, whether to get it done and if the battery lasts a year you are Ok with that, or whether you want a powerful and capable system to be reliable long term with minimal oversight.

As I said before any charging of a depleted battery is better than no charging, but Any charger plugged in long enough is no guarantee the battery is fully charged or even close to it, even if that soothing green light is shining brightly and the marketing of the product stops just short of saying its 8th stage of charging, is to perform oral sex on the battery owner.

Dismiss the idea of running an electric heater on battery power. I have a 200 watt heater. It draws close to 20 amps though the inverter, and in my lightly insulated van, can perhaps keep it in the mid 50's when outside is in the low 40's, but I caould oly run it for an hour or 2 before depleting the battery to 50% or below.

50% state of charge is often said to be the mark in which one does not want to draw the lead acid battery below. Many act like if one drains the battery to 49% state of charge it is instant death of the battery, but this is not true. It is hard on the battery to be regularly dropped below 50% state of charge, but one can get away with it with prompt recharging up to and perhaps to a true 100% state of charge.

There is no shortage of method and products to use in order to recharge while driving yet prevent discharge of the engine battery when parked. This subject alone can be 10 times as long as everything written above.

The same can be said for the alternator, the battery, and wiring leading to and from everything. There is no shortage of incorrect opinions one can find on any of these topics.

My Personal system is now optimized for my needs/desires, and has gone through a lot of evolution and if starting from scratch would look a lot different than it now does. While I can carry 3 large batteries, I carry only one group 31 high quality AGM battery( Northstar). I do not have dedicated 'house/Auxiliary' batteries. While i am using a stock alternator, it is externally regulated and I have bypassed and tricked my engine computer, and use an external voltage regulator, which is adjustable, via a dial on my dashboard next to my digital ammeter and digital voltmeter. Basically i can recharge as fast as possible anytime i am driving. My plug in charging source is an adjustable voltage power supply, capable of 40 amps. I have 200 watts of solar, whose charge controller also allows for adjustable voltage. Basically, only the solar charge controller is 'automatic' and the settings I have programmed, miss the ideal mark fairly often, and in reality 200 watts is about enough in summer and woefully inadequate in winter.


A Rv converter is a battery charger, but it is also designed to power DC loads when plugged in
A regular battery charger will get confused when one is turning lights on or off while charging the battery.

I am partial to converters made by Progressive dynamics, they have 45 / 60 and 70 amp versions. Do not fear charging an depleted AGM battery at 45 amps, unles it is 100f outside when you start charging. These converters allow the user to select one of 3 voltages and the converter makes only as much amperage as needed to attain those voltages.

My battery is a thin plate pure lead AGM. absorbed glass matt. Northstar and Odyssey are both TPPL AGm batteries and excel in deep cycle and starting duties, very good dual purpose batteries. Lifeline AGM is a dedicated deep cycle AGM. All three of these batteries very much prefer huge recharging amperages applied when they are well depleted. odyssey says no less than 40 amps per 100Ah of capacity, Lifeline says no less than 20 amps. too low of a chrging current will tickle an AGM into a premature death. Dismiss the 'trickle charger' mentality one often reads about online, especially when AGMs are involved.

Actual Gelled electrolyte batteries exist, but often any sealed battery is called a gell cell, and this is wrong. Actual gelled electrolyte batteries make for excellent deep cycle batteries, but have fairly strict recharge regimens and can be degraded badly when those parameters are not met, and overall do not make for good van batteries.

Flooded/wet/sloshy marine batteries should not be placed inside passenger compartment, though many do without issue. They offgass when charging, and have to offgass to be properly recharged. That offgassing is oxygen and hydrogen and there is a sulfuric acid mist which goes along for the ride, Sulfuric acid mist is a known carcinogen.
AGMS and Gel batteries recombine those gases within the battery and only offgass in a high temperature extreme overcharge regimen.

There is not really all that much difference between a flooded starting battery and a flooded starting battery, internally. The marine battery will have slightly thicker plates and posts as well as threaded studs. The true deep cycle battery has threaded studs for ring terminals, no CCA rating, and very thick plates. Very few flooded 12v deep cycle batteries exist. A few do, like the trojan t-1275 and other batteries in the GC-12 size group. They are expensive. In general 6v GC-2 batteres are the best bang for the buck and very tolerant of abuse batteries, but they will offgass when being chrged. perhaps not an issue if you charge when not inside and with plenty of ventilation.

laptop battery dying, will continue later......

Re: My head is about to explode from trying to figure this all out! [Re: wrcsixeight] #755596
January 08th 2020 5:47 pm
January 08th 2020 5:47 pm
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 70
Indianapolis, Indiana
C
Ceejus Offline OP
journeyman
Ceejus  Offline OP
journeyman
C
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 70
Indianapolis, Indiana
YES! I was really hoping that you would see this and chime in! Thank you!


Originally Posted by wrcsixeight
This subject, and the systems planned/developed/implemented can be taken to extremes, and it is difficult to say what you absolutely need, vs what you can get away with.

The simplest cheapest thing would be to get a cheapo AGM battery, secure it properly, deplete it as needed, and simply charge it when one gets home and it lasts as long as it lasts and ris replaced when it cannot meed ones weekend needs.


I may be leaning toward this option. I've read a fair amount about the isolators (the WirthCo 150a Battery Dr. seems like a good one) that automatically switch back and forth between the starting battery and aux battery. I think, realistically, my uses for the aux battery would be some LED's, maybe charging a phone and a secondary stereo going to a set of 6x9 speakers. No amp or anything like that on the stereo. I'm beginning to think that i may be better off getting an AGM battery and just charging it at home, before/after my weekender events and shows. Although i do like the idea of being able to jump the van off the other battery, if the main battery fails. So...realistically, is it worth doing the isolator, if the alt isn't going to charge the aux battery anyway? Or should i just get something like a group 24 or 27 LifeLine and charge it manually every time i get home? My excursions generally are only 2 nights, with the occasional 3 night stint.

The Rockpals 500w power station gets rave reviews from people running a cpap machine when camping or dry camping in an RV. I may get one of those for a backup for my cpap and use the AGM for the stereo and lights, and be done. That way, if i'm just going to a car show during the day, i don't need to pack the Rockpals power station. That would allow me to get a smaller and less expensive AGM that stays in the van.

SO MANY OPTIONS!!! UUUGH!!! Lol!

The other thing that i just thought of, is that i have absolutely zero idea how much amperage a car stereo draws...not even a ball park estimate.

Last edited by Ceejus; January 08th 2020 6:03 pm.
Re: My head is about to explode from trying to figure this all out! [Re: Ceejus] #755598
January 08th 2020 6:31 pm
January 08th 2020 6:31 pm
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,701
San Diego
W
wrcsixeight Offline
veteran
wrcsixeight  Offline
veteran
W
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,701
San Diego
I'd skip any 'power station' unless they are nearly the same cost as the parts to form them, which is extremely unlikely. Also reviews are kind of meaningless in this day and age of paid/rewarded reviewers and their potential overwhelming ignorance.

My unamplified Pioneer BT stereo that claims 52watts x4 draws about 10 to 11 amps, at near max volume with lots of bass, and about 1 to 3 amps at normal volumes.

To do some light figuring, a fully charged healthy 100Ah battery supplying only a 3 amp stereo load, which is pretty darned loud on an unamplifed stereo head unit, would last a bit over 33 hours, before it could not support the bass thumps.

A Lifeline GPL-31xt, is likely the best group 31 deep cycle AGm baTTERY available and has 125Ah of capacity. Expect to pay 420$ish dollars for it, if you can find a reasonable supplier locally.

The opposite end of the spectrum would be a UPB or UB battery, asian made, cheap, but users report pretty good life from them for a year or so, but after the time higher loads tank the voltage easily and they can then only power light loads reliably when less than nearly fully charged. None of your loads qualify as huge though.

https://www.amazon.com/Universal-Power-Group-100Ah-Battery/dp/B00S1RT58C

Back when I used separate house and engine starting batteries, I used a manual boat battery switch. 1/2/both OFF. Do not turn to off, when the engine is running or it can fry the alternator. blueseas 6007m is what i have
A simple continuous duty solenoid switched by the ignition is a solid performer too:

https://www.amazon.com/Cole-Hersee-...7185&sr=8-3&keywords=cole+hersee

this is a top quality one, you can get them for a fraction of this price and a fraction of the quality and it should be fine for a period of time. really depends on your voltage regulator and what it asks of the alternator as to how effective it will be in recharging and the more effective the VR is, the less long the solenoid will last.

There are automatic voltage sensing 'smart' solenoids that are easier to wire. Avoid any 'isolator' with finned heatsinks though. diodes cause voltage drop and voltage drop significantly slows recharging to the point of near uselessness.

https://www.amazon.com/Bussmann-RB-...mp;psc=1&refRID=R7HFXBVG13Y2M9KFCFFV

There are dozens of variations of the above product. Beware of marketing, and reviews.

A super depleted Lifeline battery, ideally, would want as high an amperage charger as you could afford. The lifeline tech manual will say faster is better, as long as voltage is limited to 14.6v max, at 77f.

the Progressive dynamics PD9245 3 voltage 'stages/ all fit within the lifeline specs, and one can manually force any of the three stages by pressing and holding a button. When the 125 AH lifeline gpl31XT only accepts 0.625 amps at 14.4v, then it can be considered fully charged.


https://www.amazon.com/Progressive-...d=1578525015&s=automotive&sr=1-1

It is automatic but has the manual option/ An ammeter is required to insure it is fully charged, but it is also safe to leave the PD9245 plugged in 24/7.
The PD9245 has 45 amps
The PD9260 has 60 amps available to attain 14.4v
The PD9270 has 70 and all these will work on a normal 15 amp household outlet. any higher requires a 20 amp outlet and more amperage is not really needed. it is not really going to save a lot of time to reach full charge anyway as thgat last 20% takes no less than 3.5 hours anyway. it would only shave some time from xx% to ~80%. but you definitely DO want to feed it more than 20 amps per 100Ah of capacity

Cheaper AGMS like the UPG or Vmaxtanks will say no more than 33 amps per 100Ah of capacity. I've exceeded the 33% charge rate on my UB12180 by a factor of 5 without a mushroom cloud occurring. it is a matter of excessive heating and them trying to limit potential warranty returns.

X2power, batteries sold at batteries plus are relabelled Northstar AGMS and in my opinion a very capable battery, but the super high CCA is not needed in your stated usage. These might be the most easily available top quality AGM, is why I bring it up.

The UB12180 18 AH agm that i carry, is capable of assisting a weak or overdischarged regular starting battery. there is no real need to have a secondary battery if one carries a capable jumper battery AND ALSO STUFFS THE LARGEST MARINE FLOODED BATTERY UNDER THE HOOD ONCE THEIR REGULAR STARYTING battery fails. sorry for caps. time rushed.
As I stated my UB12180 by itself was able to start my engine when new and fully charged. not sure about now, have not tried to do so. Jumper packs with this battery inside of it can be 160$ or more, but the battery itself can be had for 32$. Use jumper cables and it is as or more effective than the 5x the price jumper pack.


https://www.amazon.com/Linkstyle-Ch...1578525671&s=electronics&sr=1-11


https://www.amazon.com/s?k=fuse+panel&i=automotive&ref=nb_sb_noss


https://www.amazon.com/s?k=buss+bar&i=automotive&ref=nb_sb_noss_1


http://www.genuinedealz.com/custom-cables

Re: My head is about to explode from trying to figure this all out! [Re: wrcsixeight] #755645
January 10th 2020 11:16 am
January 10th 2020 11:16 am
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 70
Indianapolis, Indiana
C
Ceejus Offline OP
journeyman
Ceejus  Offline OP
journeyman
C
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 70
Indianapolis, Indiana
Originally Posted by wrcsixeight

https://www.amazon.com/Cole-Hersee-...7185&sr=8-3&keywords=cole+hersee

this is a top quality one, you can get them for a fraction of this price and a fraction of the quality and it should be fine for a period of time. really depends on your voltage regulator and what it asks of the alternator as to how effective it will be in recharging and the more effective the VR is, the less long the solenoid will last.

There are automatic voltage sensing 'smart' solenoids that are easier to wire. Avoid any 'isolator' with finned heatsinks though. diodes cause voltage drop and voltage drop significantly slows recharging to the point of near uselessness.

https://www.amazon.com/Bussmann-RB-...mp;psc=1&refRID=R7HFXBVG13Y2M9KFCFFV

There are dozens of variations of the above product. Beware of marketing, and reviews.


So i can use either the soleniod or the Bussman isolator, but not both, correct?


Originally Posted by wrcsixeight
A super depleted Lifeline battery, ideally, would want as high an amperage charger as you could afford. The lifeline tech manual will say faster is better, as long as voltage is limited to 14.6v max, at 77f.

the Progressive dynamics PD9245 3 voltage 'stages/ all fit within the lifeline specs, and one can manually force any of the three stages by pressing and holding a button. When the 125 AH lifeline gpl31XT only accepts 0.625 amps at 14.4v, then it can be considered fully charged.


https://www.amazon.com/Progressive-...d=1578525015&s=automotive&sr=1-1

It is automatic but has the manual option/ An ammeter is required to insure it is fully charged, but it is also safe to leave the PD9245 plugged in 24/7.
The PD9245 has 45 amps
The PD9260 has 60 amps available to attain 14.4v
The PD9270 has 70 and all these will work on a normal 15 amp household outlet. any higher requires a 20 amp outlet and more amperage is not really needed. it is not really going to save a lot of time to reach full charge anyway as that last 20% takes no less than 3.5 hours anyway. it would only shave some time from xx% to ~80%. but you definitely DO want to feed it more than 20 amps per 100Ah of capacity

Cheaper AGMS like the UPG or Vmaxtanks will say no more than 33 amps per 100Ah of capacity. I've exceeded the 33% charge rate on my UB12180 by a factor of 5 without a mushroom cloud occurring. it is a matter of excessive heating and them trying to limit potential warranty returns.

X2power, batteries sold at batteries plus are relabelled Northstar AGMS and in my opinion a very capable battery, but the super high CCA is not needed in your stated usage. These might be the most easily available top quality AGM, is why I bring it up.

The UB12180 18 AH agm that i carry, is capable of assisting a weak or overdischarged regular starting battery. there is no real need to have a secondary battery if one carries a capable jumper battery AND ALSO STUFFS THE LARGEST MARINE FLOODED BATTERY UNDER THE HOOD ONCE THEIR REGULAR STARYTING battery fails. sorry for caps. time rushed.
As I stated my UB12180 by itself was able to start my engine when new and fully charged. not sure about now, have not tried to do so. Jumper packs with this battery inside of it can be 160$ or more, but the battery itself can be had for 32$. Use jumper cables and it is as or more effective than the 5x the price jumper pack.


I can use the Progressive dynamics PD9245to get a full charge, but i have to check the battery with a ammeter to ensure it's fully charged. However, it is safe to leave it plugged in 24/7, until it has reached that full charge, or until i get home from work or whatever to check it. Rest assured, i would never leave it on and let it just run constantly for days on end. The 45 amp output of that charger will not be too much? Or will the output be controlled by what the battery will accept?

Also, you mentioned the X2power batteries from batteries plus. Would one of those work for my needs, even though it has a high cca rating? Is it just an AGM, but not a deep cycle?

Thank you so much for all of this input, by the way. I'm trying to soak it all in!

Re: My head is about to explode from trying to figure this all out! [Re: Ceejus] #755648
January 10th 2020 3:32 pm
January 10th 2020 3:32 pm
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,701
San Diego
W
wrcsixeight Offline
veteran
wrcsixeight  Offline
veteran
W
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,701
San Diego
The cole hersee CDS is just a giant switch. when one feeds the two smaller screw terminals 12v, then it joins the two big contacts together and parallels engine and house battery. The only issue with these is finding a 'trigger' circuit. Ideally this trigger circuit would be live only after the engine starts.

One could use an illuminated switch and manually switch it on and off, or one could also use an ignition triggered curcuit as a trigger and STILL use an additional manual switch. It will then shut off and separate batteries with engine off key off.

The BUssman is a high amperage solenoid/switch/contactor, but it senses charging voltages, and once the alternator has the engine battery/system voltage upto a certain voltage, it combines the two batteries. When charging stops and combined battery voltage drops to a certain level it separates the two batteries. The particular model linked senses charging voltages on one battery, a dual sense model exists, and senses charging voltages on either battery. There are some reasons I would not like this method in certain situations but explaining them would confuse. They are easier to wire up as they have no requirement for wiring up a 'trigger' circuit. If the thought of wiring up a trigger circuit is anxiety inducing, then the bussman , or similar voltage sensing solenoids are the way to go.

Using the CH solenoid and the Bussman would not be like belt and suspenders, it would be like two belts that did not quite fit properly inside the loops provided for them, so one or the other, but not both.

My group 27 Northstar battery, only recently replaced, was an amazingly durable and capable battery, in my opinion. Its ability to instantly start the engine the first 4 years, and the voltage it could maintain powering overnight loads, even after 6 years, was a bit mind boggling. I estimate i cgot over 1300 deep cycles from it about the same shallow cycles, and many thousands of engine starts from it. But I alwyas recharged it promptly and almost always back to a truly full state of charge. when it appeared to get a smidge lazy the remedy was a deep discharge and 65amps applied until 14.7v was reached, which took about 30 minutes, then hold 14.7v until amps tapered to 0.4, which was about 4 hours when the batter was new, and about 6.5 hours after 4 years, and by year 6 amps would not taper that low ever but it would take closer to 8 hours to the point amps would stop tapering.

The Northstar battery is a bit cheaper and likely much easier obtained than a lifeline.
The group 31 lifeline gpl31xt is 125AH
The group 31 lifeline gpl31t is 105AH
the group 31 Northstar is 103AH
The group 31 Odyssey(pc2150) is 100Ah.

If you are looking for the longest lasting battery, assuming prompt full recharges occur often and equal % discharges, then the lifeline will probably win.

The Northstar and Odyssey have much higher CCA ratings. They can turn a starter motor much quicker. if you were trying to power a huge load, like a microwave or a toaster on an inverter, they could likely power it for longer before teh low voltage alarm on the inverter starts screaming.

All three of the above brands will be capable of being recharged to 80% faster than any other AGM, and also slightly faster from 80% to 100% state of charge.

If these attribute$$ are worth it to you, is up to you. It is to me, but I only use the one battery for house load duty and engine starting, and that is why i chose the Northstar over the Lifeline.

If none of these are going to occur, then the only real benefit is bragging rights of having the best lead acid AGM batteries on the market.

No battery is immune from abuse, and if proper full charges are not going to occur then there is no point in paying the extra for them. They will last only marginally longer in the same abuse pattern as a cheaper AGM. Lifeline/Concorde is the ONLY AGm manufacturer which lists a 'conditioning' procedure, which is basically an intentional overcharge in order to try and return lost battery capacity and performance. This basically means the vents release at higher pressure and the cases are built a bit stronger, but the sides will bulge outwards and this is to be expected.

The main benefit of these higher $$ AGMs is their ability to accept HUGE recharging currents, upto their voltage maximum, which is 14.4v for lifeline, 14.46 for Northstar and 14.7v for Odyssey, assuming 77f battery temperature, and +/- 0.2v is no big deal on any of them.

The PD9245 does not really HAVE to have the ammeter, but then one is putting some faith in the fact that it is fully charger when disconnecting it, rather than knowing they are disconnecting the charger when it is indeed truly fully charged. Ammeters are cheap, i'll post a link to some options. These RV converters, one needs to supply their own DC cabling.

The PD9245 is capable of 45 amps, but in my experience drops to about 41 amps when it warms up. no big deal, but do not fear the PD9260.

The 'bulk' stage of charging is when the charging source is supplying everything it can, amperage wise, until the voltage of the battery climbs upto the 14.4v. This takes time. It takes more time with a more discharged battery or a bigger capcity battery or a charger with less amperage available. None of the three AGM batteries listed above will have any issues with 45 amps available and all will be better off for it, compared to 30 amps. The PD9245 will not allow more than 14.4v. Once 14.4v is reached less than 45 amps will be required to maintain 14.4v as the battery gets closer and closer to full charge. Once these amps taper to 0.5 amps per 100Ah of capacity, they canb be considered fully charged and at that point one either unplugs the charger, or forces it to the 'storage/float' stage by pressing and holding the little button on the rtemote until the little light flashes briefly once a second. The PD9245 is also automatic, but it might drop to the 13.6v 'storage mode' a bit prematurely. Charging still occurs here, it just takes longer to get the 9x% charged battery to 100%, and ideally the AGM wants to be held at 14.4v until it reaches 100%.

Don't really fear keeping the PD9245 connected for a week to an AGM.
If one wanted to remove the PD9245, then one needs to insure the battery is truly full before disconnecting it. If it switches to 13.8v when the battery was still accepting 1 amp at 14.4v, then it is not fully charged,. and one can press the button and the PD will bring the battery to 14.4v and hold it there for 4 additional hours. it might need 2 hours, it might need 0.5 hours, it might need the full 4 hours. The ammeter is a wonderful tool, not only for determining full charge, and realistically the ony tool which can do so, but it is a great learning tool.

There are different ways to wire up the ammeter so it shows what the charger is outputting, or what the battery is accepting/ or delivering, but that is tangential info at this point.

You can get away without an ammeter, but for me it at this point, it would be like saying I do not need a fuel level gauge, and also not knowing how far I have driven since I last filled the tank.

The Lifeline gpl-31XT at 125 amp hours capacity is likely the best true deep cycle AGm battery available, as well as being the highest capacity. it would likely be happier with the PD9260 rather than the PD9245 as a charging source, but more important than 45 or 60 amps is insuring they hold it at 14.4v until amps taper to 0.625 amps or less, before removing the charging source.

One should really try to not discharge them to below 20% state of charge too. This is likely about 11.4 volts measured about 10 to 30 minutes after all the discharging loads are removed. Like 11.2v under the load of the stereo, shut it off and 10 to 30 minutes later voltage will rebound to the 11.4v region.

The lower you discharge the battery, the more important the recharging regimen becomes.

One thing I need to add, is if You do decided to allow alternator charging.....Once you get home the battery voltage will likely be in the mid 13's for upto an hour after you shut off the engine. if at this point you plug in the PD, it will see this high residual surface charge voltage, and assume the battery is fully charged ( when it is not and perhaps fr from even close to that ideal) and it will not seek to bring the battery to 14.4v. The PD is nice as you can force it to seek 14.4v by pressing that button. With the ammeter you can see how many amps it is taking, and if say it is taking 5 amps to maintain 14.4v you can estimate your alternator got it to about 92% charged. if it is accepting 20 amps the alternator was able to get it to about 81%, if it is accepting 40+ amps at 14.4v the alternator did not even get it above 75% charged.

One other point is if you do add alternator charging, and use 4 gauge or thicker cabling, and the alternator is being told to seek and hold 14.4v for more than 10 to 15 minutes, the alternator can exceed 220f, which is very bad for its longevity. Driving on the highway at 65mph I cant get my 120 amp alternator casing above 140f when it is making 115amps, but idling at its maximum of ~52 amps, withing 15 minutes it hits 220f.

So Idling to recharge can be quite hard on an alternator and should be of limited duration. i've found speeds under 25mph do not help keep it much if any cooler than at idle speeds, on my Dodge. obviously I have no alternator temperature data on other vans and there are a lot of variables, but it is possible to overheat and fry an alternator asking it to recharge a hungry low resistance AGM like Lifeline or Northstar/Odyssey over thick cabling.

I have this Ammeter. It uses a hall effect sensor, in stead of a shunt to measure amperage flowing through a single wire. This wire can be the + or the -.
https://www.amazon.com/bayite-Digit...Y2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

It is not perfect, the amperage reading jumps around a bit with the engine running, and negative amperage does not read -12.2 amps, but says 12.2. with an extra period after the 2 to denote negative. It can display voltage too, but I found voltge to be 0.2v off so I have it set to only display amperage.

A Shunted Ammeter, the Shunt needs to go on the - wire only, and then two smaller wires go from the shunt back to the display, these wires need to be twisted together to reject RFI and are not included.

https://www.amazon.com/DROK-4-5-100...mp;psc=1&refRID=54GT3CXEHB2VGNV1YW3D

I have no experience with this product, it is an example, not a recommendation. Shop around.

I do have experience with the following Ammeter:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/50A-100A-Voltage-DC-Voltmeter-Current-Power-Meter-Energy-tester-Charger-Ammeter/264288477006?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=563866255562&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

I have it (50 amp version) on the output of my adjustable voltage 40 amp power supply. The amperage is accurate, but the voltage reads 0.1x volts low, which annoys me. the Display is nice small and compact and it will show how many amp hours and watt hours it has passed. So you can see that a 100Ah battery required 84 amp hours before it reached full charge and see just how far you had discharged it. but you have to keep in mind the best batteries when still healthy need no less than 105% returned compared to what was taken out to reach full charge and an old flooded battery near end of life can require 150% returned compared to what was removed and both these figures assume there is no loads on the battery while it is charging.

The ammeter and a Voltmeter and the desire to watch it every so often as the battery discharges and as it recharges is a great learning tool, if one is inclined to learn. Once can certainly get away wil doing much less and putting more faith in products, and accept much less battery life. There is certainly bliss to be had in ignorance, and no shortage of those who choose that path. But that philosophy should not be pushed, in my opinion

Re: My head is about to explode from trying to figure this all out! [Re: wrcsixeight] #755837
January 14th 2020 11:10 pm
January 14th 2020 11:10 pm
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 70
Indianapolis, Indiana
C
Ceejus Offline OP
journeyman
Ceejus  Offline OP
journeyman
C
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 70
Indianapolis, Indiana


If i run this Separator, when the van is turned off, will it only draw on the secondary battery? I understand it combining them when running or if the main battery is low. I just don't want to be drawing from my main battery, as well as the secondary battery.



I need one of these, or the PD9260.

I need a good/great battery.

Quality battery cables.

I have a couple of good multimeters with amperage capability. can i throw them across the battery terminals to check and see what amperage they're taking or do i need an actual permanent hard wired gauge?

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Astro, Ram4ever 

Donate


Upcoming Events
Vanfest 2020
06-12-2020
discovery
Who's Online Now
2 registered members (Charlie99909, oldskool73), 3 guests, and 2 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
oldkid, lamynespl, MajorD91, jjh, Bulldogn
11298 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
kursed 122
frscke1 25
Forum Statistics
Forums68
Topics36,782
Posts527,143
Members11,298
Most Online177
May 8th, 2013

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1