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Re: Oil Pressure Connection
nikothenomad #745179 February 11th 2019 7:39 pm
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That is excellent pressure,bearings are in great shape.cool beans🚐


When in doubt..get the sawzall out..
Re: Oil Pressure Connection
nikothenomad #745206 February 12th 2019 10:02 am
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The small 2 wire sender is for the fuel cut, the larger 1 wire male tab sender is for the gauge, I just did the same thing with my 89 g30, was freaking out about the oil pressure. I had removed the oil cooler because of bad oil lines, instantly turned the oil black in warm weather. Oil gets to hot and I have like 12 # low idle. when warm, 65 plus on cold start.

Re: Oil Pressure Connection
nikothenomad #745318 February 15th 2019 2:44 pm
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Thanks, Astro... yes, she is holding at 62 on long drives and even when fully warm doesn't drop much below 40 so we are thrilled.

jcd... not sure what you are referring to?


Nicole
1988 Dodge B250 5.9l 360 Ram CamperVan / 727 Tranny / Rochester Quadrajet Carb
www.nikothenomad.blogspot.com
Re: Oil Pressure Connection
nikothenomad #745327 February 15th 2019 7:20 pm
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Sorry I started on page two, just went thru a pressure scare myself. Did the same got a cheap gauge to compare the stock gauge, went with the dash gauge instead (changed the sender), it was more responsive than the mechanical one. BTW I have a Chevy.

Re: Oil Pressure Connection
nikothenomad #745328 February 15th 2019 7:20 pm
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The rule of thumb, at least on small block chevy is 10PSI for every 1000 rpm minimum.

Keep in mind it is not the oil PSI separating metal parts, it is the oil film strength.

So which oils are you getting those readings?

My engine on cold start up goes right upto 68PSI

When hot the maximum I will see is 62PSI

These numbers are the what the bypass spring is letting oil go into bypass at.

Right now with Pennzoil Platinum 10w-30 with ~6k miles on it, at 2K rpm highway, 42 PSI
HOt idle when first exiting highway at stop sign/redlight is 20PSI@ 525 rpm.

Thicker oil weights would raise these numbers but not beyond 62 hot and 68 cold.

If I was always seeing 60+ PSI I would use thinner oil.

Oil PSI is not necessarily more is better, if it were then we should all run 80w-90 gear oil and be in bypass the whole time.

Oil PSI is like anything over a minimum amount per RPM is fine.

My stock gauge is laughable in accuracy and precision, When I see it low I completely disregard it and look at the mechanical gauge which shows healthy PSI for the rpm.

Oil PSI and Thick oil vs thin Oil arguements can go on Non stop.

Just use a good API rated oil and a good filter, and don't add any additives to it.

While Fram Filters have a long standing bad reputation, the Fram Ultra is a very well made filter, with very good efficiency and flow. I use the Fram Ultra XG8a and will be using it for 2 oil changes this time.

Id not use the other Fram models but they too are well beyond the cardboard endca internet brewhaha of yesteryear.

In fact the older Purolator white cans started having bad media tearing issues where a significant portion of oil in such a filter would pass through the filter, unfiltered.

I am not trying to save money on Oil, or Oil Filters, but 5 quarts of Pennzoil platinum at wally workd is ~25$ and a 9 dollar fram ultra cannot be beat, The only filters likely any better are AmSoil and ROyal purple, at 3 to 4x the price.

Re: Oil Pressure Connection
nikothenomad #745334 February 16th 2019 10:05 am
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Might want to consider if the engine is flat tappet, using an oil that was available prior to the roller engine era. IE something with zinc.

Re: Oil Pressure Connection
nikothenomad #745348 February 17th 2019 9:14 am
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jcd... thanks. got it now. I pretty much knew it was a faulty stock sender since it would seem unheard of that she could roll down the highway for hours while reading L or below L. As always (if you've seen any of my other work you'd know) i kept my stock sender and will clean it up to see if i can get it working and then put a T fitting on the set up at a later date so that i can play with comparing gauges like 68 did.

marcela... i'm still running 85% original parts so don't think the original 5.9 360 was a flat tappet idea but the oil i have always stuck with has the ratings / numbers listed that match what my fsm wanted used back in the day.

68... so here are some more specific numbers. It is still new to have actual numbers to watch for and we had gotten used to knowing that the stock gauge wasn't accurate so has taken me a few days to get a sense of them. when we first start up we see 70'ish cold... I still forget to get an exact number there but cold start is the highest we've seen so far. on the highway and steady driving she does not deviate from 62. the other day i remembered to glance at it after a good drive while sitting fully hot at a long red light (AC on) and she was at around 25. as soon as we started driving again she popped right back to 62.

as for oil and filters. I was a long time fram ocod user - don't remember which model. when that whole deal started being discussed i dissected the one we had been using and saw now problems but still at that time swapped to the purolator 30001. Since the 30001 had a change we switched again this last time and I can't for the life of me remember exactly which oil filter we got this time around but i think it was motorcraft. For oil i have always used the standard quaker state 10w30 that specifies it meets the numbers my fsm wanted back in the day MS 6395. I still run oil and filter changes way more frequently than recommended at 2500 - 3000 miles and do not use additives.

will also be swapping out electric temp gauge we got from summit that has not functioned well for the last year with a mechanical one in a few weeks. looking forward to see what readings we get on that.


Nicole
1988 Dodge B250 5.9l 360 Ram CamperVan / 727 Tranny / Rochester Quadrajet Carb
www.nikothenomad.blogspot.com
Re: Oil Pressure Connection
nikothenomad #745371 February 17th 2019 5:20 pm
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The Fram OCOD issues were really overblown back when they were having issues with them, and the whole 'cardboard' endcaps thing is also been distorted by internet rumor. I would not fear the OCOD anymore, but for the same $$ there are better filters. The Fram Ultra is very well designed and made with very high efficiency wire backed media, I think it is 99% efficient at 20 microns and 80% efficient at 10 microns. For the 9$ price tag they cannot be beat, in my opinion.

The Purolators went downhill towards the end of the white can days, with uneven pleat spacing by the seam leading to tearing of the media nearer the baseplates. Motorcraft FL1a is/was made by purolator. Purolator has changed ownership lately and who makes what for whom is not something I really keep upto date on. I did like the thread end bypass on the FL-1a and when I opened up the one I used, it showed no evidence of tearing at the seam.

Regardig your 60psi oil pressure at highway speeds, I forgot you have a 3 speed 727, which likely runs close to 3K rpm at 65mph with 3.55:1 rear gears. Mine runs ~1975rpm at 65mph with Overdrive and lockup and 3:55's as I have the more delicate A500 or 42rh trasmission. Next time I am at 65mph an hot I will take it out of OD and see what PSI mine goes to in third, but in OD at 1975 rpm mine sits at 42 PSI as hot as it gets, and this number is also checked a bit more often as my OEM temp gauge has been reading higher than normal lately, but the Oil pressure gauge has not fluctuated from 42 PSI at 65mph, and if it were indeed running hotter the oil should be thinner and thus have less PSI.

The dashboard voltage limiter(5 volts) on mine started acting a bit funny and rather than spend 35+$ for a new one, I used a 8$ modern solid state voltage bucker to send 5v to the gauges, but I have not verified lately that this 5.00v I set it has not drifted in the last few years. Before going with this new voltage limiter the temp gauge on hot restart would shoot upto the H before settling midway, with the newer limiter it will only slowly rise after a hot restart.

Since I have not trusted my OEM coolant temp gauge for a while, and the Oil PSI is only somewhat reassuring that I am not running hotter than desirable, I have used thermal epoxy to adhere a K type thermocouple to my thermostat housing, and a few other areas, like my alternator. The k type is the same as provided with many digital multimeters, and I have a device which can display the readings of 4 Ktype thermocouples at once. The one on my T stat housing reads 180f +/- 2*f at highway speed, but when I slow to a red light at an offramp, it will quickly climp to 196f, but then just as quickly lower back to 194.5 and stay there, indicating the thermostat has opened enough to keep the intended 195f. This is reassuring as my OEM temp gauge might read normal or almost a full hatch mark above normal. I want to cover this area to protect it from windflow so as to get more accurate readings at highway speeds.
Seems modern manufactures thermostats, whether Stant superstats or Motorrad or Gates are all quite Junky. Mine seem slow to open fully on initial warm up, looking at the OEM gauge.

Obviously the airflow over the engine is responsible for the 180f reading at highway speeds and once stopped the flow from the fan is not enough to really reduce the temp reading and it more or less indicates true engine temperature.
Anyway i would certainly be much less comfortable ignoring the OEM gauge without the Oil PSI and the K type thermocouple on the t stat housing which indicate all is well, that the OEM temp gauge is not to be trusted.

I installed the Ktype on the T stat housing August of 2017 as it was reading high, but after a longer road trip it started reading normally again, until my recent cross country journey last November, when in Texas when it started reading high and I plugged in my 4 k type teperature gauge to see all was still well and as expected, which it was, which allowed me not to freak out about the higher than normal OEM gauge reading.

I cannot explain the inconsistent unexpected swings of the oem temp gauge, but Oh well.

As far as changing out the oil more frequently than 3K miles, the only way I would do that is if it was over a year since the last oil change, or the Oil smelled like gas from running too rich, or the Oil PSI read much lower than expected indicating the oil sheared to a lighter weight or perhaps an internal engine issue.

When one changes the oil, the fresh new detergents can strip off the ZDDP layers and other extreme pressure/antiwear additives that the previous oil has laid down over time with heat and pressure. If the engine is run hard right after an oil change, the new oil might possibly have stripped off these protective layers, and not yet had time to place its own down on the bearings/cam lobes, thus increasing engine wear.

So unless you know the oil is sheared or contaminated, or simply too old, changing it more frequently is NOT doing the engine any favors and could increase engine wear. Conventional oils of today( versus even 15 years ago) can easily go 5K miles and Synthetics 7500, but gasoline direct injected modern engines are having fuel dilution issues and manufacturers are recommending shorter oil change intervals that what the owners manuals originally stated.

I think I am about 5.5k Miles on this oil change since October 2018, and do not intend to change the Pennzoil Platinum sn+ 10w-30 until I am back in California, no less than 2600+ miles from now. In the ~5.5k miles I have driven this OCI. I have added 1 quart make up oil. Since wally world's 5qt jugs are inexpensve, I have been using Mobil 1 for the last 10+ years, and even though I never have cold start requirements, I was using Mobil1 0w-40 as it is such a good oil, the basestocks required to meet the 0w-xx specs needing to be a higher percentage of PAO ( group4) and esters( group5), rather than just Hydrocracked mineroils( group3). M1 0w-40 when I first used it made my engine much quieter over the previous M1 10w-40HM oil or the TDT 5w-40 I had been using previously, which in turn were quieter than the valvoline or castrol 10w-40s previous th that. Synthetics pretty much totally eliminated the lifter ticking on startup, warm or cold, which was enough for me to stay with Synthetics.

My latest Oil change Wal mart was out of M1 0w-40, and I was pretty much had decided to try something different anyway. On special I decided to go with eh pennzoil platinum SN+ 10w-30 @22.97 for a 5 quart jug and on startup a one particular annoying valvetrain type noise, that has been present for 50K miles diminished by 75% within 10 seconds of idling. And this quieter factor has remained at 5500+ miles later into the oil change. So needless to say I was surprised and very pleased, and will be sticking with This Oil for the forseeable future.

While it is hard to believe different oils can change the engine noise so significantly, the fact is that they do. Whether this noise equates to less engine wear cannot be determined without teardown style testing with all variables removed, but less noise is comforting. The PP 10w-30 is also showing slightly higher hot idle rpm (20) oil PSi than the M1 0w-40 did (18PSI) towards the end of the oil change interval , but slightly lower 2K rpm hot PSI. I do not really understand how that is functioning, unless the M1 is absorbing more engine heat at lower rpms. M1 0w-40 does use thinner basestocks than PP10w-30 which uses a gas to liquid basestock, but it has a higher 100C viscosity as well as HTHS viscosity due to the different types and amounts of viscosity index improvers.

The PP oil did go darker quicker but this can be expected when an oil known for high detergency is used in place of a different oil, and oil color is not really indicative of oil condition. Non detergent motor oils likely change color very little as the contaminants are sticking tothe insides of the engine rather than held in suspension by the motor oil.

Anyway QS 10w-30 is a known good oil. I'd not worry so much about original specs. My owners manual specifically says NOT to use 10w-40, because 10w-40s of that era were known to quickly shear/degrade into a sub 20 weight oil and not provide sufficient film strength to keep metal from touching metal. So that owners manual recommendation was relevant in 1989 but totally irrelevant with today's better viscosity index improvers/base stocks, and motor oils in general. Whether a 40w is required is debateable fo course, it could just lead to more drag from pumping losses and provide NO additional benefit, unless the engine were to overheat or run at elevated temperatures on the track, or the engine was prone to issues that are known to be resolved or mitigated with thicker oil, like piston slap which some newer GM engines are known for.

What is Good about 40 weight oils is they do NOT have to comply with lower ZDDP requirements of Xw-20 and Xw-30 weight oils, and ZDDP is good for flat tappet cams. Higher ZDDp on an oil burner can contaminate catalytic converters so they restrict the amount in SN rated oils, but not in the 40 weights or thicker. I forget the exact numbers but I think they are limited to no more than 900PPM of zinc or phosphorus, where about 1200 is said to be the ideal range for an oil with flat tappet cam lifters.

If you are looking for higher ZDDP oils then the diesel rated oils like shell Rotella have it, and are both diesel and gasoline rated and come in 10w-30 and 15w-40 and 20w-50.

Since ZDDp has been limited in 20 and 30 weight oils in the SN rating they have moved onto other additives, like Moly amd Boron and even titanium to replace the ZDDP as an antiwear/extreme pressure additive, but ZDDp is also an Antioxidant and many say that these newer AW and EP additives cannot replace it, especially in flat tappett cams.

As to whether your 1988 LA 360 has a roller cam, this Allpar site seems to indicate the 360 did not get the roller cam until 1989 while the 318 got the roller cam starting in 85, in trucks/vans. I could be reading it wrong though.

https://www.allpar.com/mopar/318.html

Anyway I am no tribologist, but I am not an 'Oil is Oil' type of guy. There are significant differences between brands formuations and weights, Whether these differences will make any difference in engine longevity is highly debateable. For me I want a Quiet oil, that is not going to easily shear to too thin a viscosity, keep my engine internals free of varnish and sludge, and can fight acidity for at least 10K miles in 6 months, or 2K miles in 14 months.

I did have a few sub 20f Starts at high altitude with PP 10w-30SN+ oil on my cross country journey and the engine had Zero Issues starting. It did stall when i put it into reverse though even with symthetic ATF+4.

Another thing about Synthetic oils, since they are likely to clean better, they can strip the gunk which was preventing oil from leaking past old gaskets and seals. So while Synthetics might 'reveal' oil leaks, they will not cause oil leaks, but the result is the same, and High mileage Synthetic oils might be enough to prevent revealing these leaks.

Really interms of wear, Modern Synthetics do no better than modern conventional/mineral oils, what they can do is last much longer before requiring to be changed and have much better cold flow characteristics for those who might be starting their engines in sub 0f.

I have NO fear of pushng the PP 10w-30 7500+ miles of mostly highway driving, which will allow me to change it once I return to California in a month or so, but if I were using conventional I would be stressed at pushing it that long, and likely be changing it before the trip. Doing so in my parents driveways is technically not allowed by the HOA, so I'd really have to go somewhere else to do it, or Pay someone else to do it, and I trust no Iffy lube joint to not strip my oil pan, or use a good oil of the proper viscosity and use a good filter as well. So The somewhat higher priced Synthetic is not only peace of mind, but also saving me money in the long run and running quieter too.

Re: Oil Pressure Connection
nikothenomad #745431 February 18th 2019 7:42 pm
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68.... Yeah, thanks. I had heard that the Fram OCOD issue never really held up and my dissection showed a perfectly good filter. Still, I was happy for a change and enjoyed the 30001 for a good while until this last change when I couldn't find any leftovers on the shelves and had to go to Motorcraft. At some point I may look into the Fram Ultra.

Yes, we have the A727 tranny. We still don't have a tach so I have no idea of rpms yet. It's on the list for 'someday' though.

As far as you looking at your PSI at 65 it would be better for me if you did it a 55. We are very rarely found above 55.

You had mentioned the k type thermocouples that you put around your engine. We have one that goes with our multimeter and have utilized it as a comparison in figures we were compiling for various parts of the engine at one point. We compared those with an IR temp gun and a cooking thermometer. I haven't tried attaching them to anything while driving yet. I look forward to seeing what goes on with the mechanical temp gauge as we've had little to no luck with the electrical ones and I haven't been in the mood to do anything with the dash. Everything we've shot the temp gun at has appeared o.k. so I'm pretty sure we are but still would be nice to see some accurate numbers if we can.

Whether I fully change the oil at 3K or not is pretty much mute at this point (I believe) because we are having to put a quart in about every 500 miles so that's 5 new quarts in around the same mileage. I do run her rich but don't smell much fuel in the oil. Mostly get that exhaust smell in the oil is all. The consistency between my fingers feels good and not too diluted (not that it is an accurate test but it does indicate that things are at least not horrible).

One of these days I'll get less lazy with rich running at low altitudes but for now I just leave her because she runs better at high altitudes when I have her set rich. We'll be heading back up to 8000' in a few months so won't bother at this point. Maybe when we come back down in the Fall I'll play with it a bit.

I'll keep the Pennzoil Platinum in mind if I ever decided to switch from the QS. Been happy with the QS for now and don't have any knocks or pings or anything to quiet down at this point. But it is really interesting how you can notice a difference in the quietness between different oils. Something to think about for sure.

So, you are still in the FLAt lands with us? We take off in March but have been enjoying the beautiful weather. Hope you are enjoying your visit with your folks.

Cheers


Nicole
1988 Dodge B250 5.9l 360 Ram CamperVan / 727 Tranny / Rochester Quadrajet Carb
www.nikothenomad.blogspot.com
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