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idler arm washers #740863
September 25th 2018 4:49 pm
September 25th 2018 4:49 pm
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nikothenomad Offline OP
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so just took out old idler arm to replace since it had gone bad. it was put in by someone else and he had put the washers inside the frame with the idler arm.

new washers that came with item of same model number are thicker than old ones (seven years ago) and so I cannot put things back the way they were.

thoughts?


Nicole
1988 Dodge B250 5.9l 360 Ram CamperVan / 727 Tranny / Rochester Quadrajet Carb
www.nikothenomad.blogspot.com
Re: idler arm washers [Re: nikothenomad] #740864
September 25th 2018 5:28 pm
September 25th 2018 5:28 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,783
Fircrest, WA
Reed Offline
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Reed  Offline
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Use the skinnier washers?


Windows- they're what make a van worth owning!
Re: idler arm washers [Re: nikothenomad] #740874
September 25th 2018 6:38 pm
September 25th 2018 6:38 pm
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nikothenomad Offline OP
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HA HA Reed.... well... we did consider that but here is where we are at...

We would like to get this front end tight once and for all. In only seven years and 70,000 miles we continue to replace parts that go bad every two to five or seven years.

There is one part Made by AC Delco that is made different than all of the others out there. What is the reason? Is it the part that we should have that would fit and work and last better?

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=389557&cc=1073450&jsn=827

This design is completely different and it seems perhaps stronger as it does not rest simply on the tube that the bolt goes through (which is by the way the part that went bad and allowed movement).

thoughts?


Nicole
1988 Dodge B250 5.9l 360 Ram CamperVan / 727 Tranny / Rochester Quadrajet Carb
www.nikothenomad.blogspot.com
Re: idler arm washers [Re: nikothenomad] #740888
September 25th 2018 9:39 pm
September 25th 2018 9:39 pm
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San Diego
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wrcsixeight Offline
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I've been through a lot of Idler arms in the last 17 years.

I have run into the same issue with washers being apparently too thick, ,and if one leaves out one washer then the idler can move up and down in the fram receptacle and if one just clamps the recptacle with the bolt then there is metal on metal with very little load spreading support. The Washers have to be in the inside, on such designs

I do not remember if it was on my most recent set of Idlers, or my previous set, but I had to open up the frame receptacle to get washers top and bottom. I used a grade 8 bolt and a few bits and peices to stick inside the receptacle, then unthread the Nut effectively stretching the receptacle box to accommodate the two washers.

My latest Idler arms are theh Moog Problem solvers, and I lucked out with the old made in the USA stock. They have the Grease zerks on each pivot point, as opposed to only on the part which fits into the center link.
These Moogs have been in there since 2011 and I can detect no slop, just greased them last week or so.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=203133&cc=1073506&jsn=449

In the picture above, the three thicker 'washers' are foam rubber grease retainers.

I did prep and paint then with appliance epoxy before installing.

Anyway its is not hard to make ones own spreader with a bolt some washers and a nut, and open up the receptacle just enough to fit washers top and bottom.

If there is no grease zerk on this pivot point, make sure to grease both sides of the washer, and the interior where the large bolt resides and the bolt itself.

If installed dry they will get sloppy pretty quickly and no doubt contributed to the very poor life I was getting from local auto parts stores parts.

The AC delco design seems like a cross between the washers required and no washers required designs.

I've used both, the Moogs have given me the best lifespan so far, but it might be because i got the older made in USA stock.

Re: idler arm washers [Re: nikothenomad] #740931
September 26th 2018 9:44 am
September 26th 2018 9:44 am
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nikothenomad Offline OP
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thanks, 68.

funny you should mention the ac delco design. after much research and debate we decided to go with the ac delco "washer included" design because it indicates it is close to the original design. typically i try to keep or take a photo of original parts so i know how they were designed but unfortunately i do not have a photo of the original idler arms.

i'm pretty sure that the smaller washers permitted too much play and when i tried to spread the frame to put in the larger washers it kept wanting to change the angle of everything (which may be a good idea but didn't seem like it while i was laying under there looking at things go wonky).

so, we'll try the ac delco and see how they fit. if they look like they'll have too much play i may have to consider something else.

what i do know is that i want it solid and without any movement. we are trying to finally get the front end solid and be able to move on to something else. (insert hardy laugh here!)

i'll let you know how it goes.


Nicole
1988 Dodge B250 5.9l 360 Ram CamperVan / 727 Tranny / Rochester Quadrajet Carb
www.nikothenomad.blogspot.com
Re: idler arm washers [Re: nikothenomad] #740934
September 26th 2018 12:54 pm
September 26th 2018 12:54 pm
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San Diego
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wrcsixeight Offline
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IF the idlers I replaced in 2002 were original, they were the built in washer design.

And so were the next 2 sets that had horrendous lifespans, even considering I was putting many Mexican washboard dirt road miles on them.

Some did not have any grease zerks, but my current Moogs are the only ones to inject grease on the frame pivot point, though i see many brands shown on R/A now feature zerks on both.

Kind of lucky to have so many options. The Acdelco design was not an option in 2011 when I replaced mine.. pretty sure i would have noticed the different design.

Re: idler arm washers [Re: nikothenomad] #740938
September 26th 2018 2:24 pm
September 26th 2018 2:24 pm
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nikothenomad Offline OP
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68 yes,

i had figured since most of the other ac delco stuff i have looked at look like my original parts that the built in washer design was more typical of oem.

the ones we are taking out (that lasted 7 years - or less - took us 7 years to notice) had grease zerks at both points and we kept them well greased. still the bushing (bolt) end started to get significant play. i'm thinking it is because the washers were thinner and maybe it is necessary to squeeze the larger ones in but i am also not a fan of the fact that the bolt bushing sits clear of any support for a good 1/4" or so on each end. Seems like an obvious means of stress.

So, hopefully the washer included ones will do us well.

As it turns out I may finally be taking on the control arm bushings, as well, which will then mean that everything under there will have been replaced at least once and no more original parts in that system (well, except for the steering stuff but that is what it is considering you can't just replace it outright). Still undecided on control arm bushings though as they are not totally gone just heading that way finally.


Nicole
1988 Dodge B250 5.9l 360 Ram CamperVan / 727 Tranny / Rochester Quadrajet Carb
www.nikothenomad.blogspot.com
Re: idler arm washers [Re: nikothenomad] #741069
September 28th 2018 4:13 pm
September 28th 2018 4:13 pm
Joined: Jun 2010
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USA
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nikothenomad Offline OP
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The AC Delco Idler Arms arrived and I put the first one in place. Now, this is how I had wanted them to fit - it took some doing but not too much doing. Not to mention the rotational portion of these is WAY wider than the skinny point on the other variants.

Fingers crossed they hold up well for us.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/TUnNHHeFZwbEAb1s8

By the way.... I have taken to using high temp grease for all of my zerks due to the fact that our engine generates a good bit of heat. Before I grease this new one up any thoughts on that?


Nicole
1988 Dodge B250 5.9l 360 Ram CamperVan / 727 Tranny / Rochester Quadrajet Carb
www.nikothenomad.blogspot.com
Re: idler arm washers [Re: nikothenomad] #741075
September 29th 2018 3:39 am
September 29th 2018 3:39 am
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wrcsixeight Offline
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Do they make Low temp grease for automotive use?

;)

Regarding grease, the topic can be taken to extremes.

I will say two things. Some grease bases are not compatible with other greas bases, and incompatible grease bases can cause Degelling of one or the other and the lube might just drip out. Figuring out which is compatible with which is kind of a crap shoot and most will say they have just been using such and such forever without issue. I can say that whatever came in my XRF ball joints and TRE's did not Like Redline CV-2 grease, and started dripping red oil. Redline is reddish in color, the grease that came in the XRFs is greenish, I kept filling the zerks every few days with more cv-2 until they stopped dripping red oil, some 7 years ago

Another thing is Moly. Moly is kind of antiwear additive which is usually said to act like a new deck of cards, how they slide off each other. it plates the metal on both sides and causes them to slide past each oter like a new cards in a new deck

There are a few people saying high speed roller bearings, like in our wheel bearings should not use grease with moly as the roller bearings can slide, instead of roll, and develop flat spots. There is not too many google hits on Moly grease and roller bearings, but do the search and read for yourself.

Some people who seem to know their shit, swear that high moly greases are responsible for short roller/needle bearing life in both Wheel bearings, and U joints.

I have a suspected wheel bearing issue at the moment on low mileage bearings. I used Valvoline Synpower grease which is a high moly grease.

When i do get around to inspecting, if I find rollers with flat spots, which is kind of sounds and feels like, well it is either the high moly grease perhaps in combination with road debris impact I hit at 70MPH. but I will be seeking a moly free grease for the replacement bearings, if required.

Anyway I think Moly grease is great for ball joints and TRE's and such, but perhaps should be avoided on roller bearing applications.

Re: idler arm washers [Re: nikothenomad] #741077
September 29th 2018 9:43 am
September 29th 2018 9:43 am
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nikothenomad Offline OP
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Interesting stuff 68. I would have to say that my limited experience with moly greases is that I am not as sold on it as others have been. Perhaps the issue is more with bearings as you said but I'm much more a fan of just making sure things are lubed regularly so that metal isn't on metal.

So far we haven't seen any leaking or dripping with our high temp grease which I cannot say the same for the greases we were using prior. Can't remember what we used to use but I do recall that I found it leaking out more often or quickly compared to the high temp we have been using.

I think I will stick with the high temp since it seems to fill the joints very well and so far has appeared to last longer. We run pretty frequent oil changes and grease each time so I figure we are doing well and any failures we are getting seem to be just poorly made parts.

Speaking of... the AC Delco's that just arrived were made in the USA. Guess we'll see how they hold up. I'm looking forward to finally getting the front end all shored up again.

Pulled off the upper control arm on the passenger side and it went well so I'll go ahead and remove all four and get them ready for painting prior to pushing in the new bushings which will arrive on the 1st.


Nicole
1988 Dodge B250 5.9l 360 Ram CamperVan / 727 Tranny / Rochester Quadrajet Carb
www.nikothenomad.blogspot.com
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