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Re: IF I don't start the van every few days, I must add gas to the carburator ?
Puzzele #727068 August 21st 2017 6:53 pm
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Originally Posted by Puzzele

Too bad there isn't a way to 'pump' gas into carburetor without having to try and start the van and burn out the starter... kind of like in a lawnmower. A lawnmower has that little button/bump you hit 3 times before you start the lawnmower. Too bad my van doesn't have that feature! ;)




There is. Install an inline electric fuel pump

example : https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/atx-e8012s


1979 Nomad
2005 E350 Cutaway Class C
Re: IF I don't start the van every few days, I must add gas to the carburator ?
Puzzele #727071 August 21st 2017 8:32 pm
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This is what I have to say about it... my forty cents if you will. We have the same problem... when it is hot out. When the temps are cooler to cold, one pump of the pedal and she fires off like a champ. After much investigation, thought, experimentation, etc. we've decided that it is an evaporation issue. Right now, in FL, dead of summer, if we let her sit a day... one pump and she fires off great. More than that and it takes progressively longer to fill the bowl and get her going again. Used to think it was leak down or other issues but since she consistently can sit for weeks at a time in the colder weather with little trouble finally concluded it was evaporation.

Lastly, I second the inline electric pump. Although we don't plan on going this route. Instead we just know in the heat we've got to crank her to fill her and then pump and start. It is what it is.

Good luck.


Nicole
1988 Dodge B250 5.9l 360 Ram CamperVan / 727 Tranny / Rochester Quadrajet Carb
www.nikothenomad.blogspot.com
Re: IF I don't start the van every few days, I must add gas to the carburator ?
BlairW #727079 August 22nd 2017 11:21 am
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BlairW: Thanks for the info on the Electric Fuel Pump thingy.

Um, feel free to laugh, but is there like an idiots guide on how to install that thing? I know ZERO about auto mechanics... and am not a huge fan of playing with fuel related stuff... Think its a simple job or am I better off getting somebody that has a clue what the hell they are doing?

By way of example, I looked on the comments section of that page where they are selling the Electric Fuel Pump thingy and it says, "This pump has a max output of 9 PSI, so a regulator would be needed if 9 PSI is more pressure than your carburetor is designed for. Many carburetors require 4-6 PSI so in many cases a regulator is recommended." My engine is definitely NOT stock.

[Linked Image]

I have NO idea what the answer is....

Hmm... is there perhaps an easier solution? I honestly only start the van up a few times a year.... so its not a huge issue.. I just hate to have the starter crank 3 times before I can finally get the fuel into the carburetor while I FURIOUSLY pump the gas pedal a gazillion times as quickly as possible while its trying to start... and like I said... It seems silly to go through all the time/trouble to remove the dog house to add fuel to the carburetor.. particularly since I'm only going to drive it around the block anyway... but at the same time.. I'm not sure how smart it would be to go this route either.

THANK YOU GREATLY IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR ONGOING HELP. SINCERELY APPRECIATED. smile


Re: IF I don't start the van every few days, I must add gas to the carburator ?
Puzzele #727119 August 23rd 2017 12:20 pm
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OK- you need to become familiar with the basics of carburetor operation. I'm not being rude, just noting that many people these days don't know how to properly live with a carbureted vehicle.

(1) Fuel pump operation. Old mechanicla fuel pumps operate off a lobe on the camshaft or an eccentric that bolts to the front of the cam. Mechanical fuel pumps typicaly make 5-7 PSI or so, which works out great beacuse most carbs only need 4-5 PSI of fuel pressure to operate. The fuel supply PSI needs to be that low because the carburetor float actually functions as an on/off valve controlling the fuel flow. When the carburetor float bowl (discussed below) gets full of fuel, the float lifts up and presses the inlet needle into the inlet seat and stops the flow of gasoline into the float bowl. Too much fuel pressure and the fuel pump will overpower the float and cause fuel to overfill the carburetor float bowl leaking to a massive fuel leak into and onto the engine.

(2) Carburetor construction. The main point here is the float bowl. The float bowl acts as a small reservoir/holding tank of fuel for the carburetor to feed the engine. Contained in the float bowl are the float (the on/off switch for fuel flow), the accelerator pump, and the main jets and main metering rods (if so equipped). This is an oversimplification since there are many designs of carburetors with different fuel metering arrangements, but for the purposes of this discusion that is enough detail. The fuel in the float bowl serves an number of functions. It provides a ready supply of extra gas to be squirted into the carburetor throat when you step on the gas and operate the accelerator pump. It also stores a small amount of fuel on which the engine will run when first started and the fuel pump has not drawn fuel from the tank yet.

(3) Gasoline evaporates. All non-marine application carburetors all have vents to the atmosphere for a variety of reasons (none of which are important here). These are typicaly called the "bowl vents." If the vehicle sits for more than several days, chances are the fuel in the float bowl will either completely or partially evaporate out the bowl vents. In the bad old days, we all just lived with it. Garages and car interiors often smelled like gas because the cup or so of gasoline left in the carburetor evaporated and the fumes got everywhere, including into the "fresh air" intake for the passenger compartment. Beginning in the late 60s, car manufacturers began experimenting with ways to trap the evaporating gas and make it able to be reused. Early methods included trapping it inside the air cleaner, but the generally accepted industry standard became the charcoal cannister.

Charcoal canisters work by collecting the gasoline vapors that escape from the carburetor (and fuel tank on later models) and storing them in a charcoal matrix to be reintroduced into the carburetor when the engine starts back up. This reduced pollution, make starting easier, eliminated the nasty gasoline smell from garages and interiors, and saved money since you were no longer buying gasoline and just letting it evaporate. The charcoal canister usually has one to five hoses on it. Early models just had a hose that went to the bowl vent on the carb. Later models had two hoses that went to the bowl vent(s) and another port on the carb as well as a hose that went to the vent on the fuel tank. The most advanced designs had numerous hoses that went to many different places. All these hoses were the drawback to charcoal canisters. Many auto enthusiasts and "mechanics" who did not understand what all the hoses were for, were intimidated by all the hoses, thought all the hoses were messy, or just thought auto emissions didn't matter, disconnect the systems or removed them or levelled baseless criticisms against them. The truth is charcoal cannisters help your car run cleaner, be more efficient, and have absolutely zero negative impact on performance.

(4) Proper carburetor operation. "FURIOUSLY pump the gas pedal a gazillion times as quickly as possible while its trying to start" is not the correct way to start a carbureted engine, especially one that has been sitting. Doing this can actually cause the internal parts to wear out prematurely. Here is how a properly functioning carburetor on a daily driver street driven vehicle should operate. If the vehicle is cold, you should be able to depress the accelerator to the floor once, release it, turn the key, and have the car start. Some models require the one pump followed by holding the accelerator pedal 1/3-1/4 of the way dwn while turning the key. In some circumstances (very cold areas) you may need to pump it twice or even three times, but most places only need one pump. The engine should start easily and go immediately to a high idle that drops within a minute or two (longer in cold climates).

When you pump the gas that first time, several things are happening. Externally, the choke valve should be closing fully and the fast idle linkage should be getting set to hold the thottle partially open. Internally, the accelerator pump operates and squirts gasoline into the intake to richen the mix and make starting the engine easier.

(5) What happens when the float bowl is dry. When the float bowl is empty, on the first pump of the accelerator pedal the choke will be set but the accelerator pump will have no fuel to pump into the engine. Depending on the type of carburetor you have installed, the acceleretor pump plunger may be of a design that has a rubber (actually, not rubber but some fancy synthetic material. A long time ago they were leather, but those days are long gone) cup that goes up and down in a small cylinder in the float bowl that pumps the gas into the carb throat. When the float bowl is dry, that little rubber cup scrapes along the edges of its cylinder and wears itself down every time you pump. This is why pumping the pedal many times while you wait for the float bowl to fill can damage the internals of the carb.

(6) The right way to start a carburetor if the float bowl is empty. If you know the float bowl is empty, the best way to start the engine is to remove the air cleaner and fill the float bowl with gasoline or carburetor cleaner through the bowl vent tube. If that isn't an option, pump the gas ONCE to set the choke and fast idle, then crank the engine for a while to give the mechanical fuel pump a chance to pump some gas up into the float bowl. This can often take 30-45 seconds of cranking. After the first 15-20 second of cranking, pump the gas pedal once. If the engine doesn't catch and run, keep cranking and pump once every 5-10 seconds untli the engine catches and runs. Never crank for longer than about a minute. You will wear out the starter motor and the battery. If the engine doesn't start after cranking for a minute, let it sit for about 30 seconds and try again.

(7) Installing an electric fuel pump. Installing an electric fuel pump is not difficult and might actually be a good idea for you. With an electric fuel pump you can prime the carb with gas before ever touching the accelerator pedal. Here are Holley's instructions on how to install one of their aftermarket electric fuel pumps intended to work with a carb. I strongly STRONGLY recommend you follow those instructions and install a safety shutoff. http://www.jegs.com/InstallationInstructions/500/510/510-12-801-1.pdf

Hopefully this helps de-mystify the carburetor and helps you solve your problem. I strongly recommend you get a factory service manual for your van and read it to learn how everything works. That will help you operate it better and keep it around longer.


Windows- they're what make a van worth owning!
Re: IF I don't start the van every few days, I must add gas to the carburator ?
Puzzele #727120 August 23rd 2017 12:46 pm
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Excellent post Reed!


1979 Nomad
2005 E350 Cutaway Class C
Re: IF I don't start the van every few days, I must add gas to the carburator ?
Puzzele #727129 August 23rd 2017 2:36 pm
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Reed: Thanks soooooooooooo much for taking the time to respond in such detail about my 74 van. SINCERELY, I had absolutely no idea I wasn't starting the van properly by pumping the gas a bunch of times. I also didn't realize that me pumping the gas (before I even insert the key), is starting the process of getting fuel to the carburetor. I foolishly thought I had to crank it as I was pumping. Doh!

I have a hunch a LOT of people are making the same mistake as me. Just an idea, but if you ever get a chance, you should create a short Youtube tutorial video explaining how to start an old 74 van. Seriously. I know it sounds goofy.... but I had nooooooo idea after all these years.

As for ME installing the fuel pump, I think I'm going to pass. I'm too chicken and once I saw mention of the "safety shutoff," I am definitely too chicken. I'm a SCHMUCK. If I can't even start the van up properly, it probably ain't a good idea for me to fiddle with electrical stuff and fuel. But perhaps I'll have somebody install it down the line in the future for me.

Once again... thanks VERY VERY much... and if you do create that Youtube video (and I SINCERELY hope you do), please send me the link. Many thanks again. smile

Re: IF I don't start the van every few days, I must add gas to the carburator ?
Puzzele #727131 August 23rd 2017 2:45 pm
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For what it is worth, I have a 76 Dodge pickup truck. A previous owner removed the charcoal cannister and I haven't replaced it yet. If the truck sits for more than a couple days the float bowl is dry. I have to crank it for a good 30-45 seconds before enough fuel reaches the carb and it will fire off. This is normal. I hope to add a charcoal canister in the future to alleviate this problem. Eventually I want a turbo and fuel injection, but that is a different thread.


Windows- they're what make a van worth owning!
Re: IF I don't start the van every few days, I must add gas to the carburator ?
Puzzele #727133 August 23rd 2017 3:08 pm
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My 2 cents .... When I go to start my 4x I open the door put in the key (which is higher than my head) turn the key & it starts...Then I get in after a couple minutes of warm up. I never touch the gas pedal as I dont get in it to start it.

My '92 is a little lower & I sit in the seat to start it ..... sameo sameo turn the key no pedal.


Yes both of my vans have a charcoal evap canister

Last edited by frscke1; August 23rd 2017 3:11 pm.

SUNSHINE VANS-VAN DIEGO
ADRENALIN BY THE GALLON & CHASIN RACIN
ONE FOR THE DIRT & ONE FOR THE STREETS
'93 CHEVY G30 454 4X4 SPORTVAN EXT 146" WB
'92 CHEVY G30 454 BEAUVILLE EXT 146" WB
Re: IF I don't start the van every few days, I must add gas to the carburator ?
Puzzele #727134 August 23rd 2017 3:37 pm
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Are your vans fuel injected or was Chevy still putting carburetors on 92 and 93 vans? I would be shocked if your vans didn't at least have TBI. Ford and Dodge were all FI by 88. I don't know much about Chevies.

Last edited by Reed; August 23rd 2017 3:37 pm.

Windows- they're what make a van worth owning!
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