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Softer, longer lasting Rain Gutter Seam Sealer?
#716928 November 21st 2016 11:22 pm
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I'm trying to find a seam sealer more flexible and longer lasting to completely fill my rain gutter than the typical 3M 08505 Fast’n Firm seam sealer. Since my van is a work van, I'm more concerned with preserving it, than a nice shinny paint job.

Has anyone used NP1, SikaFlex 221 or Vulkem 116 instead of 3M Fast’n Firm I keep reading cracks?

Thanks!

https://www.vanning.com/threads/ubbthreads.php/topics/384999/1

https://www.vanning.com/threads/ubb...replacing-rain-gutter-sealant#Post671641

https://www.vanning.com/threads/ubb...a-rain-gutter-rust-on-95-e350#Post716881







1995 E350 6bt/nv4500
Re: Softer, longer lasting Rain Gutter Seam Sealer?
rebar #716933 November 22nd 2016 5:45 am
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You and me too!

I used 3M's Fast'n Firm on my van, and despite what appeared to be an initial success, which you read about in the one thread that I posted in, I eventually became totally disgusted by it.

It was difficult to apply smoothly in as large a drip rail as on my Dodge van, even in ideal application conditions, and then it failed within several years despite substantial surface preparation. As with many materials targeted towards the automotive refinishing industry, it behaved very well for a year or so. But then it cracked in several areas of the flat runs in both drip rails, then peeled up in those spots just like dried pond mud into Pringle's potato chip shaped edges, allowing water to enter and get underneath it. I'm gritting my teeth at how much cleanup and rust repair that's going to require...

Though it wasn't used in a drip rail application, I didn't have especially good results with the 3M 8656 brushable seam sealer either. It split open in multiple areas as it cured, despite proper preparation for the epoxy paint it was applied to. I even called the 3M support line about it to verify the preparation was correct and materials were compatible. It acted like it didn't like sticking to itself; almost as if it needed fibers mixed in to keep from tearing itself apart as it dried. I took it back for another, newer can, (-called 3M and had them run the date code) and it did the same thing, even on other non-epoxy surfaces. I'd used it with no difficulties 5 years or so earlier, so I have to wonder if it's been reformulated for lower VOCs?

The end results of all this is no more 1-part seam sealers for me!

Partially due to my already having the necessary applicator gun, I decided to go with the 3M 8307 2-part self-leveling seam sealer. I have several cartridges already, but the weather has deteriorated too much in Michigan to apply and paint it now, at least until I can get my van into a heated garage.


-It's been such a LONG TIME... BlueShift>> 1981 Dodge Ram B250 Custom Sportsman Maxi Van


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It's what you learn after you know it all, that counts...

Are you living to work, or working to live?

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Learning from my own mistakes is good, learning from yours would be much better! [Linked Image]
Re: Softer, longer lasting Rain Gutter Seam Sealer?
rebar #716938 November 22nd 2016 8:30 am
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Thanks Ram4ever.

Your not the first one Iv read having the same problem and Im surprised since I thought 3M was one of the best. And yes, its the low VOC as I read even ford factory had problems with later years.

There's a guy over on the sportsmobile forum that swears by the Vulkem. But I read Vulkem also changed their formula.

I just aired down my tires and got the van under a 7' door to do the work this winter. But at this rate and not feeling comfortable with the products, who knows what I will do.

Last edited by rebar; November 22nd 2016 8:31 am.

1995 E350 6bt/nv4500
Re: Softer, longer lasting Rain Gutter Seam Sealer?
rebar #716971 November 23rd 2016 1:08 am
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pooh-bah
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It's certainly an area which bears some experimentation on small test panels prior to committing to a large surface, especially one which is laborious to clean out like a full size van drip rail!

I've had really great results with the 3M 2-part body panel adhesive, and pretty much swear by it, with the caveat that if your local jobber doesn't move much volume you'd better call 3M from the parking lot prior to leaving with it to verify that it hasn't expired! I've marched right back inside on several occasions, demanding an exchange, much to the chagrin of the embarrassed sales counter folks. Shelf life on these products typically doesn't exceed one year in climate controlled storage...

You've got to check; I had some 8116 once which wouldn't set for anything - despite my test panel (I was becoming quite cautious by then!) which should have been hard as can be inside of two hours, setting outdoors for a week in direct sunlight. I got a refund on that one and got fresher stuff (-called 3M immediately to verify the date codes...) and it worked perfectly; set up right on schedule and I was able to sand and paint within several hours.

The 3M support folks told me that the date codes require some research on their part, as on the 2-part materials, each part may have come from different lots or manufacturers, each with different expiration dates, so it's necessary to look up both parts separately! They do have quick enough access to the data that it can be researched comfortably in a phone call, and encouraged me to call any time I have any doubts at all. They really do want us to be successful.


8116 body panel adhesive is one of the materials used in current automotive production; it's good stuff. Most body shops will use 8115 instead, since it sets up a bit faster; they can throw paint on and get the repair out the door sooner to make room for the next car. 8116 is stronger though; it meets OEM specs.

It isn't especially well known, but the builder of the Flamed van (which was recently wrecked) told me he used body panel adhesive on his rocker panels when he built it in the 1990's, and those seams came out and remained show quality for the life of the van, with no print through or delamination. That van sadly ended up being a great test case; in the wreck pictures the panels held up wonderfully, despite damage to the body extending all the way forwards.

I did about 1/3 of the driver side of my maxi van with 8116 body panel adhesive, when I deleted a conversion window and cleaned up some other surface damage, and the results were awesome, and are holding strong.

If panel adhesive were at all flexible enough to flow out well, I'd be tempted to use it in a drip rail. Since it's considered to be an automatic seam sealer, it would certainly work to keep water out. But I think that it's highly likely that the purpose-formulated self-leveling seam sealer is more apt to meet our expectations.

I wish I'd been further along with my interior while the weather was good; I'd love to get the roof finished. I'm going to do it in stainless steel, and once that's done, I'll tend to cleaning the failed Fast'n Firm sealer out of the drip rails, and then I'll apply the 2-part self-leveling seam sealer. I'll be sure to post the results when it's complete, which may well be spring at the rate things are progressing.

So, I do give a thumbs up to the 2-part products, as long as the date codes are provably within the products intended expiration dates.


BTW, I feel for you on the low garage door; when I rebuilt the suspension on my van, it raised up so high even deflating the tires wouldn't allow it to fit in my garage! I had to save up and have a contractor cut the door opening taller, based on our measurements of my van, then add another vertical panel to the garage door!


-It's been such a LONG TIME... BlueShift>> 1981 Dodge Ram B250 Custom Sportsman Maxi Van


[Linked Image]

It's what you learn after you know it all, that counts...

Are you living to work, or working to live?

[Linked Image]

Learning from my own mistakes is good, learning from yours would be much better! [Linked Image]
Re: Softer, longer lasting Rain Gutter Seam Sealer?
rebar #717011 November 23rd 2016 11:41 pm
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We sure must love our vans Ram4ever. I'm actually searching for another house with a huge/tall garage and less bedrooms since I divorced my X. You modified your garage to accommodate. My home is a split foyer, so I cant raise the door because of the bedrooms above.

I started digging the old seam sealer out today. It looks like most of it is in good shape and I'm wondering why I'm digging the good old toxic stuff out. So far it looks like the seam sealer failed right where the crimped side panel was folded over the roof panel or the very top of the gutter. In fact some of it is completely rusted away and separating.. I knew I was opening a can of worms but cant stand thinking water might be getting inside of a vehicle I spent so much time and money on. I made it about two feet until I cut my finger so I took a nap. More to come!

[Linked Image][Linked Image]


1995 E350 6bt/nv4500
Re: Softer, longer lasting Rain Gutter Seam Sealer?
rebar #717017 November 24th 2016 2:11 am
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pooh-bah
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A pole barn would be awesome. I originally had my sights set on a house up here which had a separate, heated, drive-through garage, but it was too far out in the stix for my other half's taste. Hope you find a winner!


Just to give you some idea of how the Dodge van roof and upper wall joint are structured, here is a cross section:
[Linked Image]

Water has to work to get through it, but it can, and once it does, it can travel quite a ways from where it enters to wherever it finds a way out, so digging out the entire drip rail is about the only way to be sure you stop any current or potential leaks.


And BTW, if you go with the 2-part 3M materials, here's is the type of applicator gun I got, the 3M #8571:
[Linked Image]

I picked it up on eBay for a really good price. It works really well. Each cartridge of adhesive comes with two mixing nozzles, but if you need more, the aftermarket mixing nozzles can be had inexpensively too.


-It's been such a LONG TIME... BlueShift>> 1981 Dodge Ram B250 Custom Sportsman Maxi Van


[Linked Image]

It's what you learn after you know it all, that counts...

Are you living to work, or working to live?

[Linked Image]

Learning from my own mistakes is good, learning from yours would be much better! [Linked Image]
Re: Softer, longer lasting Rain Gutter Seam Sealer?
rebar #717029 November 24th 2016 1:08 pm
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A shouse would be nice until you wanted to sell it. Iv been watching the market for about four years with no luck. I dont want a pole barn with wood in the ground. But building one with a foundation would cost more than I could sell my place for probably.

Thanks for that cross section pic. There's so much going on there its hard to see exactly and imagine trying to rebuild that..
The reason I'm now wondering, is the vertical outside edge of the gutter doesn't look like it crimps the top on like I thought and could be eliminated to allow water to shed maybe?

Does anyone have a picture or drawing of the cross section of the fourth generation ford econoline gutter?


1995 E350 6bt/nv4500
Re: Softer, longer lasting Rain Gutter Seam Sealer?
rebar #717032 November 24th 2016 2:58 pm
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pooh-bah
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There are Vanners who have cut away the entire drip rail on both sides and welded it flat. I've seen a pictorial here, but it was a number of years ago. It's a lot of detail work, but it makes for a very modern looking update to a vintage van.


A pole barn may not need a massive solid foundation - one of my friends in Pennsylvania erected a big (30x20 feet) metal pole barn, with steel vertical posts bolted to J bolts embedded in separate concrete pads for each post, and the floor was dug out and filled in thick gravel. He keeps his tools, welders, corvette, and cigarette boat in it, and it's held up well for nearly 20 years now. I don't know how deep the concrete pads go, but it's got to be less yards of concrete than a full-blown foundation. The price of steel isn't exorbitant either; it was running 50 cents per pound when I was at Alro Metals in Ann Arbor the other day. It sure was a darn sight cheaper than the Copper bar I also bought, which was running $8.32 per pound!


-It's been such a LONG TIME... BlueShift>> 1981 Dodge Ram B250 Custom Sportsman Maxi Van


[Linked Image]

It's what you learn after you know it all, that counts...

Are you living to work, or working to live?

[Linked Image]

Learning from my own mistakes is good, learning from yours would be much better! [Linked Image]
Re: Softer, longer lasting Rain Gutter Seam Sealer?
Ram4ever #717069 November 26th 2016 3:31 pm
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Originally Posted by Ram4ever
There are Vanners who have cut away the entire drip rail on both sides and welded it flat. I've seen a pictorial here, but it was a number of years ago. It's a lot of detail work, but it makes for a very modern looking update to a vintage van.


A pole barn may not need a massive solid foundation - one of my friends in Pennsylvania erected a big (30x20 feet) metal pole barn, with steel vertical posts bolted to J bolts embedded in separate concrete pads for each post and it's held up well for nearly 20 years now.


Yeah, I'm all about concrete and steel and that type of construction your friend did is fine for storage, but would be difficult to insulate and finish out. By the time you add studs every 16" or 24", you might as well have just stick built off a foundation IMO.

Iv read about people who regretted cutting the drip rail off because rain water would go straight into the window. I'm trying to imagine how good it would look on a 4th gen econoline without pictures, but I don't think it would.

After manually prying out the body filler the previous owner used, some of the vertical drip edge is completely rusted away and gone. I know how to weld, but am reluctant to tear out the vans custom interior and remove ever bit of combustible material from my garage to prevent a home fire for a work van. But its not out of the question.

After some research, it sounds like epoxy is a better binder than polyester resin if I use fiberglass as long as you drill some holes for it to grab onto.
Iv watched a few video's of POR 15 Epoxy Putty and like its firm moldable consistency, ability to sand and reputation if I go that route.
Do you know if chopped fiberglass mixed into the west systems epoxy I have can be moldable and sandable like POR 15 Epoxy Putty? Or any idea what filler would since I already have a bunch?

Here's a video of half the damage. Thanks again Ram4ever.

http://vid640.photobucket.com/album...E-4CA6-85F0-BD5BB65AE224_zpscpzrhp1y.mp4


1995 E350 6bt/nv4500
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