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Posted By: Altosax Steam out the tailpipe - January 22nd 2012 12:37 am
First start up of re-man head + Edel Intake & carb install today. Got initial time going ok and actually ran pretty good - BUT...

Quite a bit of steam out tailpipe. Lots in fact. Ran no more than a total of a few minutes (probably less than five min total) in say three sessions to adjust carb + time a little, but the coolant is steaming out the tailpipe.

See anything wrong here? (I 86'd the little orange seals BTW.)
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Posted By: Reed Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 22nd 2012 1:01 am
Stem is normal on a vehicle that has sat for a while. The steam is condensation boiling out of the muffler line and muffler. I wouldn't worry unless the steam continues more than ten minutes or so.
Posted By: CatFish Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 22nd 2012 1:21 am
Pressure test the cooling system. If you have a leak that'll show it up.
Vehicles condensate for quite a while on a cold start-up but I would expect a non-catalytic system to clear up pretty quick as there's no cat to trap the initial heat.

OMG..I'm on a Dodge thread!!!! blush
Posted By: Ghetto Rat Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 22nd 2012 1:24 am
If it doesn't smell sweat like coolant than its all good.
Posted By: Altosax Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 22nd 2012 5:24 am
Now I think I am pulling coolant into exhst via exhst mani bolts that penetrate into water jacket. Like I got 'em scrambled and did not use correct washers or partially stripped threads or all three.

Seems to be coming from R. side only, which is where I think I screwed up bolts& etc. Might pull bolts + goop with copper RTV.

This thread schooled me: http://ramchargercentral.com/vehicle-help/steam-out-the-tailpipe-of-a-318/
Posted By: Grogan14 Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 22nd 2012 5:51 am
Only the outside holes penetrate the water jacket, and it does look like that's a stud in the one that you can see in your pics. Be interesting to see if your problem does indeed lie there.
Posted By: wrcsixeight Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 22nd 2012 5:51 am
Deep breaths.



Watch the Fish...




Think of your Happy place.



Okay

Are you sure you are burning coolant??????

If so, How are you sure?

Now keep in mind how long it can take for all the condensation from sitting so long to burn off. Also keep in mind the weather we have been having in Socal today. I followed a '10 Mercedes 500 something series for a mile and a half today, and the thing was steaming like a dog turd on a snow pile, more from one exhaust than the other.

I once had a broken stud on my passenger side exhaust manifold for months, and then when I went to fix it, the EZ out broke inside the stud.

Think Curse fest to end all curse fests. I bet the sound waves are still orbiting the planet 6 years later. I drilled it out as best I could going through many cobalt bits, and tried to re tap it in place, manifold still on. Somehow I managed to get it to grab something so I backed it out smeared the new bolt with copper rtv and torqued it down. Six years later I lose no coolant.

But even before this, I lost no coolant.

I would not tear into it until you drive it for a while, on a warm sunny day.
Posted By: Altosax Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 22nd 2012 7:59 am
Oooommm. Oooommm. Thank you for your thoughts! I assure you my Socal mellows are well in place. I will step back and consider before any hasty type action and appreciate your welcome suggestions. Namaste.

Aannd, just checked the driveway puddle - is 'neath driver side tailpipe only (I have duals). Maybe this means I didn't torque front head bolt enough - the one it is impossible to get a torque wrench on...but Oooommm! Lemme sleep on it.
Posted By: wrcsixeight Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 22nd 2012 8:05 am
deleted due to red wine intake causing brain farts
Posted By: Alikazam Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 22nd 2012 1:17 pm
I liked to put studs in the outter 2 manifold bolt holes that went into the water jacket and made sure they had threadlocker on them to seal them up and keep them there. Also made sure they were trimmed appropriately so you could get manifolds/headers on/off without need for removal smile Hopefully that is all it is in your case! Check out Remflex gaskets too if you need a better seal smile
Posted By: Altosax Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 22nd 2012 9:18 pm
Has studs in correct position with conical washers. Just checked torque on bolts/studs. Reaches spec but don't really tighten. Confirmed steam drvr side only. My compression post head install was good so maybe head gasket not suspect.

Q: Should I plan on dropping ex that side and totally removing the studs to apply copper RTV or teflon tape...or can I just do exposed part of thread while leaving stud in the head?

Do NOT want to twist stud off in the head.
Posted By: Grogan14 Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 22nd 2012 9:53 pm
If I recall, the torque specs are fairly low on them, due to the style of gasket.

If that's indeed where the problem lies, you'd need to get sealant on the portion of those studs going into the head, as that's where the coolant would be coming from. If the coolant is coming from there, I'd have to assume those studs were out during the reman process, so should come out without trouble, you'd think. A stud removal tool is always nice to have...
Posted By: Phoenix Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 23rd 2012 1:15 am
Make sure your intake is sealing up I had a vacuum problem with a 360 until I changed back to steel intake gaskets. all was good then. The torker intake was leaking by the heads. If that steam smells like coolant you have a problem
Posted By: Altosax Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 23rd 2012 4:45 am
Definitely vaporizing coolant driver side only. More as temp goes up, and more if I blip throttle a little.

Vac gauge is showing very near 20 at idle. I replaced a stripped ex man nut near #1, ran it again with no improvement.

Dropped exhaust man, gasket looks correct. No moisture or hissing around cyl head to block mating surface externally at least.

Post head re-install compression showed pretty good - no obvious drop off hole to hole, but I can look at that again.

Don't think the studs were removed for head work. Also, had used the steel intake gaskets before and the port sizes were much closer match. This time I used the blue Felpro - both intake and cyl head.

Could intake gasket have shifted during install and is allowing coolant access to say #1?

How possible to incorrectly install a cyl head gasket? Has locater pins.

Checking cyl head bolts torques, front one not easy to get a torque wrench on but I think it's tight -

I can work that stud out and goop it up and see. After that, I guess I go at the intake gasket?
Posted By: wrcsixeight Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 23rd 2012 4:57 am
Wait a minute,

Is this photo:
[Linked Image]

From the same engine?

Passenger side?

Same head? Remachined?

Posted By: Grogan14 Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 23rd 2012 5:17 am
I believe the locator pins prevent you from installing the head gaskets reversed.

When I freshened my 318, I used the steel intake gaskets, which self-aligned themselves. I assumed the little red plastic things were to be used to help keep the blue gaskets aligned. Searching several forums, folks seemed to be split about 50/50 over which to use. I do remember that the metal gasket was a closer match to the ports.
Posted By: Altosax Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 23rd 2012 5:26 am
Yup, same motor. Pic you reposted above is drvr side.

That's 1-3-5-7 drvr side cyl's when I removed the head. The orig head gasket is in place. The heads went out for work after, came back like this:
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The top of that rough piston got smoothed out like this:
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Posted By: Altosax Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 23rd 2012 5:37 am
This pic is just befoire head install - this one pass side, which is not putting out any steam, I have dual exhst.
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Posted By: Grogan14 Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 23rd 2012 5:48 am
Do they take enough off of those heads in truing them that the intake manifold needs to be milled to match?
Posted By: frscke1 Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 23rd 2012 5:54 am
Originally Posted by Grogan14
Do they take enough off of those heads in truing them that the intake manifold needs to be milled to match?



And they say we dont need math in school...this is a trig problem...the sides of the heads are farther out which puts the intake down far enough in the V for the coolant to seep in one area...
Posted By: wrcsixeight Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 23rd 2012 6:03 am
Was the cross hatching still visible on the cylinder bores?

I don't know that I would have been comfortable reusing that block unless it was re machined. Whatever it was that was bouncing around in the cylinders and pitted the piston heads also had to do a number on the cylinder walls. Wouldn't think the rings would seal very well.

Here is what a roller cam'd LA 318 looks like.
[Linked Image]

The re machined heads, they were magnafluxed to check for cracks?

Here is a magnafluxed crack in the head when I had my engine rebuilt:
[Linked Image]

Posted By: Altosax Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 23rd 2012 6:04 am
Originally Posted by Grogan14
Do they take enough off of those heads in truing them that the intake manifold needs to be milled to match?


Good Q Grogan14,

I asked the shop and they said they took only very minimal amount, not shaved but just enough to clean surface. I aked if I would need to machine intake mating surface and was told it would match fine. Vacuum is good - like 20 - but I guess that wouldn't prove the seal was great beyond the vac measure itself. I forget the Edel torque spec but that's what I used. As I recall it is quite a bit less than Dodge FSM. I have no steam from pass side though with same torque on bolts.
Posted By: Altosax Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 23rd 2012 6:13 am
Quote:

"Was the cross hatching still visible on the cylinder bores?

I don't know that I would have been comfortable reusing that block unless it was re machined. Whatever it was that was bouncing around in the cylinders and pitted the piston heads also had to do a number on the cylinder walls. Wouldn't think the rings would seal very well."

'Course you are right about comfort level. As to cross hatching pretty sure that was gone 25 years ago. I do have good compression though, and can only increase it by squirting 30 wt a bit. Not a lot. I admit it is an experiment. Did not have ability to pull the block.

I theorize these Mopars are extremely forgiving. Runs cool, not a high compression, etc. Maybe it will blow up - I ain't sure.

I think the cyl walls are much harder material than the top of these pistons. The valve relief on some are much deeper than the dings I smoothed out. Even the installation direction notches have sharper edges too.
Posted By: Grogan14 Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 23rd 2012 6:14 am
Originally Posted by Altosax
I forget the Edel torque spec but that's what I used. As I recall it is quite a bit less than Dodge FSM.


I reckon that's due to it being aluminum.


Did you figure out what that was, bouncing around in that cylinder?
Posted By: wrcsixeight Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 23rd 2012 6:30 am
Originally Posted by Altosax

I theorize these Mopars are extremely forgiving. Runs cool, not a high compression, etc. Maybe it will blow up - I ain't sure.


I'll be interested to see if there is much oil consumption if you can get it to stop steaming.

Is there any coolant in the oil?
Posted By: Reed Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 23rd 2012 6:40 am
Edelbrock says to torque their intake manifolds to 25 ft pounds. Get the installation instructions HERE.

If it is getting good vacuum and nothing is leaking from the exhaust studs, you may want to just run it for a few days and watch your coolant level. About 10 years ago I had the 351 that is now in my 89 Ford rebuilt by a very reputable shop in town. The engine builder said that the motor would leak a little at first until it was broken in. Sure enough, I had a little bit of coolant seeping past the intake and head gaskets. However, it settled down after a few days of driving.

There is also the chance that what you are seeing is just condensation. Try topping off the radiator and taking the van for a good long drive. If the van doesn't overheat and you don;t have white smoke when you get done, then you are fine.
Posted By: Grogan14 Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 23rd 2012 6:54 am
I agree with Reed. Popping off the exhaust manifold to check for signs in that area wasn't a big deal, though I never thought the studs very likely to be your problem, but I can't see going any further without first running it long enough to absolutely rule out condensation in the exhaust, and to see if things seat.
Posted By: Altosax Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 23rd 2012 7:09 am
Thanks, lemme think on that. I will try to post some pics or link a vid tomorrow.
Posted By: Altosax Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 24th 2012 7:11 am
Originally Posted by wrcsixeight
Originally Posted by Altosax

I theorize these Mopars are extremely forgiving. Runs cool, not a high compression, etc. Maybe it will blow up - I ain't sure.


I'll be interested to see if there is much oil consumption if you can get it to stop steaming.

Is there any coolant in the oil?


Nope, no coolant in the oil, tho it has not been run very long yet. Engine has good compression, too. I saw your interesting thread in "Bob Is The Oil Guy" about your rebuild some time ago.
Posted By: Superbeast Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 24th 2012 6:00 pm
It's been quite a few years since I messed with a small block Mopar, but I swear the head gaskets were a mirror image front to back. The picture you show of the gasket on the block deck has the top water jacket hole blocked by the head gasket and the rear is open. IIRC, the heads have a passage hole cut into the front portion of the head for the coolant to flow up and into the intake and back out the water pump. The gasket you show, with having the one hole blocked may be causing your issue. Do you have a picture of the gasket before the head went on from the other side? Did you install them both the same way? Although, maybe not, I guess the locator pins wouldn't allow you to put them on wrong.

I would start by double checking the part numbers to make sure they are accurate. Then borrow a coolant pressure tester and pressurize the system and watch to see if pressure drops. Next, I would check the spark plugs on that side of the engine and look for spots or differences in the plugs as water in a cylinder will show up on the plugs.
Posted By: Superbeast Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 24th 2012 6:03 pm
PS: If it comes to pulling the heads off again, one trick I learned years ago, if using gaskets not impregnated with sealer, get a can of silver spray paint and paint the gaskets before installation. I'm not sure why it has to be silver, but it does. I've done it with every engine I've ever built and never had an issue with the head gaskets leaking.

PSS: Those little red plastic things are supposed to go in after the intake gaskets go on to help keep the gasket from slipping during intake installation.
Posted By: Altosax Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 25th 2012 12:40 am
Ran this 318 a bit today, at least until I realized alt belt was trying to bail out. Got to temp, maybe it did "vapor" somewhat less. Looks like this at low low idle:
[Linked Image]
Shows OP: at temp:
[Linked Image][Linked Image]
Little blip on gas pedal produces more cloud action:
[Linked Image]
Plugs pulled just after, recovering from super rich idle from the other day all drvr side look like these:
[Linked Image][Linked Image]
So I don't know what I have got here. Maybe there is coolant finding its' way into combustion - or maybe a heck of a lot condensation...but just one side? I will run it more tomorrow after I get alt mount issue resolved and try some of the cooling system pressure tes as has been suggested. Kind of thought I might find clue that coolant was getting to #1 due to corny handling of gasket tab or maybe insuff torque down on that hard to reach head bolt...
Posted By: Reed Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 25th 2012 12:45 am
It looks fine to me. Fix the belt, check the coolant level, and take it for a test drive.
Posted By: Phoenix Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 25th 2012 1:24 am
You can't read used plugs with a new problem Put in a new set and run five miles and take a look. I learned that with my old carb tuning problems. Old messages get mixed with new problems and you don't get the right diagnosis. at least one new plug on either side , but all new will give a head gasket leak a location. That if you can afford to loose a set of plugs just for testing. Some people in here can't do that. But those that can't can take theirs and have them cleaned and at least give an idea where the problem is.
Posted By: DrBob Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 25th 2012 1:51 am
Originally Posted by Phoenix
You can't read used plugs with a new problem Put in a new set and run five miles and take a look. I learned that with my old carb tuning problems. Old messages get mixed with new problems and you don't get the right diagnosis. at least one new plug on either side , but all new will give a head gasket leak a location. That if you can afford to loose a set of plugs just for testing. Some people in here can't do that. But those that can't can take theirs and have them cleaned and at least give an idea where the problem is.


Do you know I still have one of the old spark plug cleaners.
OOOps now i'm telling my age LOL
Posted By: Altosax Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 25th 2012 4:12 am
Hey Dr. Bob - You remember the lever to advance "spark" on the steering column? The throttle you could set on the dash? Did you ride in the rumble seat? I sure did, and not in no parade either!
Posted By: Altosax Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 25th 2012 5:05 am
Originally Posted by Reed
It looks fine to me. Fix the belt, check the coolant level, and take it for a test drive.


Thanks, I will.
Posted By: Superbeast Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 26th 2012 3:26 pm
It's hard to tell from your picture of the plug, but it looks to have some deposits on it. Like Phoenix stated a new set of plugs would help diagnose a bit better as your plugs may have deposits from previous issues you had while getting the new engine fired up and running properly.

If you can't afford to buy a new set of plugs right now, take a scotch brite or a piece of steel wool to each one and clean it off (out) with carb cleaner.

This chart will help you to read your plug condition.

With this being a new engine I recommend pressure testing it as opposed to running it as if you are leaking coolant into the cylinders, it may wash the oil off the cylinder walls and cause ring failure.

Your local AutoZone (maybe other stores as well) should have pressure testers to borrow.
Posted By: DrBob Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 26th 2012 4:12 pm
Originally Posted by Altosax
Hey Dr. Bob - You remember the lever to advance "spark" on the steering column? The throttle you could set on the dash? Did you ride in the rumble seat? I sure did, and not in no parade either!


I remember riding in the back window of my Fathers Dusenburg.
Posted By: Altosax Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 26th 2012 11:48 pm
Originally Posted by Reed
It looks fine to me. Fix the belt, check the coolant level, and take it for a test drive.


Put a tad more torque on 2 front intake bolts and also on cyl head bolts that steamy side...no more steam. Running manners are promising if not yet butter smooth. No visible tailpipe emmissions or stinks at all! Road tested about 1/2 hr just around town, though I did do a couple runs up to 45 mph and above with kickdowns at a couple diff speeds - has partial KD, I am sure as I did not floor it to KD.
Got pops out the carb twice while under a load - but not every time, just the twice. I think I am at only about 5 BTC so I have some room to advance there. Whew and yay, but mostly whew. Thank you.

Think I at least have a slight ignition miss as vac gauge bounces intemittently also engine surges or searches in some loads and acts lean...or rich in others. Not too far out of the ballpark though.

After it cools I will pull some plugs and see what they look like. Thanks for the support here.

Now there's this pair of headers I saw on a Dodge van at the JY yesterday, hmmm...

Road test today...
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Reed Re: Steam out the tailpipe - January 27th 2012 12:38 am
Cool! At least there isn't any pinging. The pops out of the carb and the fluttering vacuum gauge combined with the steam disappearing after torquing down the intake suggest to me that your intake manifold *may* be warped causing an intermittent vacuum leak. For years before I knew better I would torque aftermarket aluminum intakes down to the same torque spec as the factory cast iron intake. I never had a problem with the intake leaking. You might try loosening all the intake bolts and torquing the intake down to 35 ft-lbs in the proper torque sequence.

You should also double check the distributor vacuum advance pod and the carb vacuum choke pulloff pod and see if they still hold a vacuum. These are two often overlooked sources of vacuum leaks.

Cool beans about the kickdown! PT kickdown is a nice feature.

An HEI swap often cures ignition misses. ;)
Posted By: Altosax Re: Steam out the tailpipe - March 03rd 2012 12:39 am
OK now...A little more torque on intake bolt near #1 reduced steam to zilch, or close to.

Has been running pretty good while attending to electrical issues, maybe 60 or so miles total.

But: After a 12 mile outing on weekend I thought it had lost some smoothness to engine. Pulled plugs today and all seem MUCH too clean...and #2 had definite moisture. I think the plugs are getting "washed".

Is it common to need to re-torque head bolts after a couple heating cycles? Maybe I am not getting the block to head seal I need. I re-torqued all intake bolts today.

Gotta road test again. So do cyl head bolts often need re-torque? Thanks.
Posted By: Reed Re: Steam out the tailpipe - March 03rd 2012 7:36 am
I forget- do you have a vacuum gauge? What is you vacuum reading at idle? I would suspect lean running due to a vacuum leak or fuel mixture being off form a carb adjustment before steak cleaning the plugs. WHen you say #2 had moisture, could it have been gas?
Posted By: wrcsixeight Re: Steam out the tailpipe - March 03rd 2012 8:14 am
I would monitor the level of overflow bottle( if installed).

If you continue to lose coolant, whichever cylinder(s) are affected, are being scrubbed by steam, meaning less lubrication for the rings and cylinder bore.

Not something that additives or plain old hope can fix.

I would buy a coolant tester and see if hydrocarbons are present in the coolant, and make a decision from there
Posted By: Alikazam Re: Steam out the tailpipe - March 05th 2012 2:54 pm
Usually it is a good idea with standard head gaskets (stock style) to retorque after a good couple heating cycles. I'd maybe even back off the intake manifold bolts a little while you do this then retorque the intake manifold bolts after the heads are retorqued. Good luck! smile
Posted By: Superbeast Re: Steam out the tailpipe - March 05th 2012 9:39 pm
Get in it and drive it! Get about 500 miles on the motor and then re-torque the head bolts. You'll be good to go as long as the temp. is staying at normal operating levels. If you have already washed the cylinders with fuel before the rings set, then they won't seal any better that they already are. If you just washed them with coolant and you have solved the coolant issue, you need to run that baby and seal those rings up.
Posted By: Altosax Re: Steam out the tailpipe - March 07th 2012 10:42 am
Update to this is I did put a little more torque on intake manifold bolts, in correct sequence. Steam no longer present - or is now only a bit when cold. I will retorque heads after 500 or so miles, I am running a 160 thermostat so have not heated up much, only run 100 miles or so. Using Mobil1HM 10-30 Wix filter. No oil consumption yet but it is coloring some.

This engine has remaned heads and several valves were replaced. I will eyeball coolant bottle as the thoughtful gentleman suggests.

Reed: I do have vac gauge and it indicates no obvious issues - That said I may have been a bit lean. I re-set mixture and slightly reduced time.
Posted By: Reed Re: Steam out the tailpipe - March 14th 2012 4:10 pm
I would replace the 160 thermostat with one rated at 195. 195 was the factory rating. Also, 5W-30 will give better fuel economy than 10W-30. I never use anything thicker than 5W-30 unless the motor has very high miles or is in bad shape internally.

A little bit of white smoke when cold is fine. It is just condensation burning out of the exhaust line.
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