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Do I need new alternator with stereo upgrade?
#690983 June 29th 2015 9:19 am
Joined: May 2014
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1974 Dodge B200. I just upgraded the sound system to what I consider to be a fairly mild system by today's standards. Sony head unit with 2 4" speakers and 2 6x9's running with an Alpine 45W power pack amp. Also have a 12" Alpine sub with a 460 watt amp. I have a stock 60A alternator with an 800 cold cranking amp Carquest Silver battery. When I have the volume up and the bass is hitting (especially on R&B tracks) I see a pretty good deflection to the + on the alternator gauge. I switched on the headlights and there is a very slight pulsing of the headlights with the bass as well. I wouldn't even call it a dimming as much as a slight pulsing. I then turned on the AC and everything pretty much stayed the same with brightness of lights and deflection of meter. I don't know if the gauge is entirely accurate but it will jump to over +25 on bass hits. So that leads me to my question. While this system is not really high powered by any stretch it is still much more than what you would have been running in 1974. Am I shortening the life expectancy of my battery and alternator? Should I upgrade the alternator ? I can get a 114A unit for about 80 bucks. Or am I fine and the gauge is just telling me on each bass hit my alternator is trying to make up for that power draw? I just don't want to get stranded some day because I overtaxed and burned up my alternator and or sucked the life out of my battery prematurely. I have no other electronics running in the van other than standard lights, turn signal etc. I appreciate any advice. Thanks guys!

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Re: Do I need new alternator with stereo upgrade?
67deluxe #690989 June 29th 2015 11:00 am
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A 60 amp alt is made for a stock van if you add sound equip you need to get a bigger alt, at least a 114 if not bigger. The more you add, tv, coffee pots, GPS, 12v outlet's, the bigger you need to go. The bigger you go, the heavier wire you need & a battery that can handle the current. Buy it right or buy it twice.

WRC68 will have a better write up on power, he'll be along shortly.


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Re: Do I need new alternator with stereo upgrade?
67deluxe #690991 June 29th 2015 11:11 am
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You need to upgrade both your alternator and the wiring in your van. I believe in 74 Dodge was still running all the alternator current through the ammeter in the dash. Putting a 100+ amp alternator through a gauge designed for 60 amps is asking for a vehicle fire. There is more involved with this than just bolting in a new alternator.

I highly recommend you take the time to research hoot properly upgrade the alternator and charging system in your van. Before anyone brings them up, IGNORE MAD ELECTRICAL.

I would start reading here:

http://slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28160
http://www.allpar.com/history/mopar/electrical.html

There are other websites that do a good job describing how to safely bypass the in-dash factory ammeter on old Mopars when doing a charging system upgrade.


Windows- they're what make a van worth owning!
Re: Do I need new alternator with stereo upgrade?
Reed #691000 June 29th 2015 12:26 pm
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Good advice. Would not of known about all that juice flowing through the ammeter. That definitely will need bypassed as the allpar article illustrates.

Re: Do I need new alternator with stereo upgrade?
67deluxe #691007 June 29th 2015 5:22 pm
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I am not familiar with the earlier dash ammeters which ran full alternator current through the dashboard and back out.

An Ammeter is a wonderful tool, but without a voltmeter on is pretty blind. Same for just a voltmeter alone.

My 89's ammeter, I ripped it out long ago and replaced it with a tachometer.

I also have 2 voltmeters, one for each of my batteries.

You could likely get away with your system, as is, by using a battery charger when at home.

I would bypass that inline ammeter as I believe they were known fire hazards, and upgrade the cabling to and from the alternator. Go for at least 4awg, and Not those ultra crappy cables sold in AP stores. SAE wire is ~20% thinner than AWG. The AP cables have pressed steel ring terminals. Very resistive, low quality junk.

This place will custom make cables from top quality components, using top quality tools and knowledge, for awesome prices.

http://www.genuinedealz.com/custom-cables

Once you upgraded the cabling, both + and - to alternator from battery or battery to engine ground(-), and bypass the Ammeter, charing amps into battery should improve.

Once the alternator gives up, then replace it with a higher amp model, and the wiring will be ready to handle it.

Idle speed amperage on Dodges is notoriously bad, and your headlight dimming on Bass notes is likely only noticeable at Idle. This is due not only to the poor idle speed output of the alternator, but the poor wiring leading to the headlamps. It is too long, too thin, with too many connectors, and the result is the lights receive 2.5 volts or less than what the battery is getting from all the resistive voltage drop.

Light output is not linear with voltage. Adding relays triggered by the stock wiring harness to give the headlamps higher voltage makes them significantly brighter, and makes you safer at night.

Often times, a higher rated alternator can produce its higher amperage only at much higher rpm, and at normal RPM's perform poorer than their lower rated counterpart.

Do note lead acid batteries are happiest when they live their life as close to fully charged as possible. It takes about 2 to 4 hours to bring a battery from 80% charged to 100% charged, no matter the charging source. Too many people act like an Alternator is an instant and magical battery recharger, when it is one of the poorest options available to fully recharge a battery. 2 to 4 hours, and that is IF the voltage regulator allows 14.4v to be held for those 2 to 4 hours, which is unlikely.

When your battery dies, consider replacing it with the largest Marine battery which can fit. These are more tolerant of deeper discharges than a thin plate starting battery. But a Marine battery is nowhere near as tolerant of deep cycles as a true deep cycle battery.

12v batteries in the sizes available which fit underhood, even if labelled deep cycle, are built nowhere near as robustly as a 6v golf cart battery.

One can use a deep cycle battery for engine starting, it will just have to be significantly larger to have the same CCA rating as a starting battery.

Many AGM batteries blur this line between starting and deep cycle.

Avoid Optima batteries for deep cycle applications. Odyssey is a much better battery, but when deeply cycled, requires a high amp recharge rate, or it will perform badly.

In Case anybody wants the best of the Best. Lifeline AGM makes the best AGM batteries available. They do not have the super high CCA ratings of Northstar or Odyssey, but they will tolerate and recover from abuse better than either, and still have enough CCA to easily start a 318 at 0f.

I recently got a Lifeline GPL-31XT for a project, and am thoroughly impressed with its performance and build quality.

But at 410$, it better be damn impressive.


Re: Do I need new alternator with stereo upgrade?
67deluxe #691010 June 29th 2015 6:44 pm
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The original ammeters were OK when new, but over the years corrosion and neglect leads to inefficiencies, increased resistance, increased heat buildup, and failure. I agree that a voltmeter is better for general automotive use. I wonder if the older full-flow ammeter could be converted to a shunt style like Mopar did in the mid to late 70s?


Windows- they're what make a van worth owning!
Re: Do I need new alternator with stereo upgrade?
67deluxe #691035 June 29th 2015 7:53 pm
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I read through the bypass instructions a few times. I think what I am not clear on is if you pull the 2 appropriate wires from the bulkhead connector and leave them out or if making the changes written in the instructions bypasses the ammeter automatically and you leave them in.

Re: Do I need new alternator with stereo upgrade?
67deluxe #691057 June 29th 2015 9:11 pm
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I found my original Ammeter useless when my alternator failed 11 years ago. The only reason I knew the charging system failed is because my windshield wipers moved really slow, as well as my turn signals.

Even when cranking the engine, a 100 amp minimum load, the ammeter moved 3/64" to the left, and charging at 50 amps was 1/64th to the right. So I never noticed when the alternator quit, and with 2 batteries at the time I likely drove for a few days around SF with no functioning charging system.

Likewise, analog voltmeters are useless unless you can easily discern the difference between 12.6 and 13.6v.

I did not read Reed's links on how to convert.

If you are not concerned about factory appearance of the Dash, one can plumb an inexpensive Ammeter/voltmeter combo on the (-) output of the alternator. The one thing I am unsure of is whether the alternator is grounded to the case even when it has a separate ground cable to it, and this could be different year to year.

I do have a Digital Ammeter/ battery monitor in My van, but it is plumbed only to read amps into or out of the batteries and is not safely visible from the driver's seat. It does not read the total alternator output and I am not quite sure how many amps are required just to run my engine, though I have other tools to measure this, I never have.

This linked Combo Ammeter/voltmeter is easy to wire up, and inexpensive, and can handle 100 amps. BUT, if the alternator is grounded through its casing, it will not read alternator output properly. The Shunt has to go on the (-) side of the circuit with this particular unit.

I've found this Ammeter to be accurate when compared to my other meters, until the amps drop below 2 amps, and it will not read currents under 0.7 amps

http://www.amazon.com/DROK-4-5-30V-...?ie=UTF8&refRID=1PAVVGA9NT43X107TV5S

I am employing this meter in a portable power pack I've designed which includes a 45 amp plug in charger, a 400 watt pure sine inverter, and a few other bells and whistles. It will hook to the alternator of 3 different vehicles via Winch connectors, but the main vehicle will have 2awg cable leading right to the alternator for maximum recharging amps into the Lifeline AGM battery, which is said to be safe accepting 365 amps.

The Combo ammeter is wired to read charging amps and battery voltage. It will not be able to measure discharging amps unless rewired (switching two wires on the shunt) to do so.


Re: Do I need new alternator with stereo upgrade?
67deluxe #691070 June 29th 2015 11:33 pm
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The negative rectifier heatsink plate, which has diodes soldered to it, is a direct connection to the frame of the alternator through its four little mounting screws.

The positive (at the top) and negative rectifier assemblies, plus the condensor:
[Linked Image]

All in place in my alternator:
[Linked Image]

You can see the silver heads of the four mounting screws for the negative rectifier assy in profile at the lower right:
[Linked Image]


The negative cable is just to make really sure that there is an uninterrupted high current path between the alternator frame and the engine block - it gets around all of the bracketry.

This is what happens to the bulkhead connector as resistance builds up - not my van BTW!
[Linked Image]

-A very good reason to do away with the interior ammeter and upgrade to a headlight relay system.




-It's been such a LONG TIME... BlueShift>> 1981 Dodge Ram B250 Custom Sportsman Maxi Van


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It's what you learn after you know it all, that counts...

Are you living to work, or working to live?

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