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| | | 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | My only front suspension experience at this point is replacing the Idler arms, Bump Stops, Shocks, Strut Rod Bushings, and Sway bar links. I’ve been trying to wait till I can afford the quality parts, and do the job right, once. The above parts were replaced about 30 months ago. I cannot afford new control arms. Not the cheaper Mevotech and Dormans’s, nor the Raybestos/Mcquay Norris, much less anything custom. I hope I find the current control arms, when wire wheeled and closely inspected, are reuseable. The New parts are in the mail. 4 new XRF ball joints 2 of the 4 tie rod ends.(URL photo is from XRF website) Fatter Moog 7272 springs to replace the thinner 7270 diameter springs Coil Spring Isolators 2 LCA Bushings 1 set of UCA Bushings. About 3.5 years ago I paid a mechanic in Baja 38$ to replace the drivers side upper control arm bushings with some MOOG bushings I brought with me. I wanted to watch them work, but I know how annoying that can be, and did not get to really have a good look. They did not have a ball joint seperators, nor a screw out press, nor a hydraulic press. A hammer, a chisel and a hacksaw. The old bushings were so bad, they felt they needed to eyeball an alignment, No charge. No tools for the job, no straight edges, measuring tape, mirrors, lights, anything. Just a guy looking down each side, and one under the front end. After replacement, it tracked very straight!?? Today I did a little further inspection, a little wirebrushing, a little PB blasting, a little dental picking. Repeated as necessary. Took some macro photos, and when I put them on the PC and phtotshopped them, I saw I did not really do a good job. Sometime pre 2001, the previous owner did the upper ball joint, I‘ll have to check the paperwork the PO gave me as to exactly when. I had the front end on jackstands where the bumperjack points are. I had a floor jack under the lower CA lifting 99% of the weight. I could barely detect any movement out of the Moog BJ. The lower ball joint did not have a brand stamped on it. It has some movement, but not very much, I am not nearly as worried driving it now. I had suspected the lower BJ was really bad. That is not to say that some parts are not scary. This is a combination of dried Baja Mud and rust. Just left of center there is a ring that surrounds the bushing receptacle. In the Summer of 2002 I was 4/5 of the way down the Baja Peninsula, and heard something pinging and rattling around. A local mechanic, who had a sweet b200 parked in front,found it. I slipped it over the control arm as far as I could, and crushed it with a pair of channel locks, and had forgot about it. Part #4 is the culprit rattler. What purpose does this serve? My springs are 22 years old. This is the Forward PS UCA bushing. Looking from underneath. I have ordered a factory service manual. Mine was not cheap(70$) but I’ve been meaning to obtain one for a long time now. At this point I am a little concerned about the fitment of my coil spring isolators. The suppliers say they are for 1994 and newer models. My photo in the Haynes Manual shows what they call a “Rubber Isolation Pad”. It looks different. The Moog 7272 springs say they fit an ‘89 model and a ‘94. I cannot see why the Moog pads would not work. Does anybody know if there are any differences where the coil spring presses up on the frame? Feel free to chime with info/recommendations on any aspect of the job I’m beginning. Tomorrow I will be inspecting and cleaning the drivers side, and wait till you see the poor state of the 30 month old MOOG control arm bumper. My ball joints might not be in dire need of replacement, but no doubt my springs are. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 old hand | old hand Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 | The price you paid for the manual was about normal, I got a good deal on the one for my van, $13 after shipping. The suspension should be the same as my 92 and I pretty sure the 94 as well. Also looks the same as the 86 I had. I haven't much more experience with the suspension than you have, end links, strut bar bushings and shocks. I will also be refreshing the front suspension on my van one of these days. It don't seem like that new isolator will be a problem, with the thicker springs it will stiffen up the front end and maybe even lift it up a little, which if the isolator is thicker than the original it too will give a lil lift. Make sure you paint all those new metal parts with POR 15 or something of the like! They will last longer and not fail do to rust plus it looks better. It looks like alot of work and keep us informed of everything you do. I will try to help the best I can. Keep the pictures coming! | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 Madman! | Madman! Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 | Yes, I do believe that your front end is the same as the 78 Dodge all the way up until the last ones built. I did a front end on One not long ago, and I wondered what that part #4 was for also. I put it back on each side, but I'm still not sure what it was for. There is only one per side and they are on the rear bushing. I would think if it were for extra support they would be on the front?
Those are the threaded ball joints too. Get the socket ahead of time and a 3/4" breaker bar and prolly a big pipe also. Remove the ball joints (or at least break them loose) while the control arms are still on the van. Even a good vise that's bolted solid is hard to work with them. If you have access, you may want to have a set of torches near by to heat the control arms also. Sometimes those ball joints can be a bear to get out. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 Madman! | Madman! Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 | Your picture of the 2 of 4 tie rod ends, what is the thing on top?
Also, you may want to change the 2 idler arms. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | I pulled that URL from the XRF website. I have no idea what Vehicle that top part is for. http://www.xrfchassis.com/parts-tierod.htm I could detect no slop what so ever in the idler arms. The first set I replaced was obvious. I used junk to replace them, the first time, and they only went 2 years. I think I've got about 5 years on this set. I forget the brand. But this is a photo of one of 'em, I'm not really sure what to do about obtaining the 2 1/8 BJ socket. Hopefully my cleaning and PB blasting for a week beforehand will allow them to come out without too much trouble.
Last edited by wrcsixeight; August 01st 2010 3:05 am.
| | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,170 old hand | old hand Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,170 | Is that a mis-print or using the wrong term? These vans don't have more than one idler, do they? | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | It does have 2 idler arms. Years ago, I argued with a guy in the parts store about it, and forced him to come out and look. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,170 old hand | old hand Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,170 | Funky, I guess it's the only way to do it with the box so far forward. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 Madman! | Madman! Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 | Ah, no wonder I didn't know where it went on the van, or what it was Yes, the 78 and up did/does have 2 of them. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,170 old hand | old hand Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,170 | My '77 does too. It's really, really quadrilateral! | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | The drivers Side UCA upper ball joint has a lot of slop. It looks like it has been in there a long time. It also appears to be a little smaller then the Moog problem solver on the other side. The flats look 1/64th or 32 smaller than the Moog It was much more difficult to clean all the crud off this one. The lighting was a little better on this side for photos. One of the UCA bushings(Moog)I had installed in Baja. A MOOG quote: They are not affected by oils, alkalines, ozone or hydrocarbons; can withstand extreme weather conditions; can carry substantial loads; and will not discolor or crack with age. And finally, the control arm bumper 3.5 years old. Think my springs are tired? | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | I'm hoping some local Auto parts stores have one of these to rent. OTC 8034 Chrysler 2 9/64"" Large Ball Joint Socket Or one of these: Alltrade 648749 Kit 32 Specialty Ball Joint Socket Tool Set | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 Madman! | Madman! Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 | My '77 does too. It's really, really quadrilateral! Maybe they all did, it's been a long time since I owned my mid. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 Madman! | Madman! Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 | AutoZones, I think have the sockets to rent.
The bump stops look like really crappy rubber. I always use urethane bushings now when available. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,170 old hand | old hand Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,170 | The only problem with urethane is the squeaky's. Designs have gotten better with zerks and channels for the grease to flow, but the last time I did a car all urethane I was hosing them down with silicone every couple of months. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 Madman! | Madman! Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 | I've replaced everything in the front of Superbeast with it and have no squeaks. Maybe there are different kinds?
Also did the Tress 4x4 Ford with it and had no squeaks.
Hum? | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,170 old hand | old hand Joined: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,170 | Like I said, this was before they started making design improvements. I have not used them since then (it was in the 80's), but am glad to hear they don't squeak anymore.
I, in no way, wanted to imply they were bad, just that they made noise years ago. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | I'm pretty sure those were Moog bump stops I used, or at least that's what I bought, who knows what they decide to put in the box and ship out. The passenger side one replacedat the same time is not cracked, but does show usage. I was thinking it looks so bad because it sees so much weight due to the weak springs. I was a little leery of the polyurethane bushing kits, not so much for the possible squeaking, but the instructions to use the old bushing casings. The FedEX guy just dropped off my MOOG springs. They were not packaged well at all and were beating themselves up inside the beat up box with the UCA bushings loose and acting like shrapnel. So much for the: While many coil springs are equipped with protective tubes to insulate the clash of metal on metal, Moog uses a premium urethane tube that will outlast our competitors' PVC tubes on both our constant-rate and variable-rate coil springs. I think the Factory Service Manual will arrive today. The UCA "Moog k7118" bushings I ordered, which arrived today as well say: Clevite silent bloc and are made in Mexico. A crushed Moog problem solver box with k7118 part numbers was provided. Just got off the phone with the local Autozone. They have the 'kit 32' which is supposed to be the Socket. 22$ plus tax. Thanks for the suggestion.
Last edited by wrcsixeight; July 30th 2010 2:30 pm.
| | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 868 Likes: 2 old hand | old hand Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 868 Likes: 2 | if you use Urethane, you want the black, graphite impregnated ones that will not squeak. Red squeaks unless lubed
1972 Dodge Van "Tigerlilly" - Blazing Copper/Sandstone Metallic - 3850 lbs empty 13.47 @ 97.53 mph N/A - 11.94 @ 113.33 mph N2O - old 360/727 + Nitrous (N2O)combo Viper V10 + 4L80E conversion in progress...
2009 Dodge Challenger SRT8 "Leelu" - TorRed - 6.1L Hemi/6 speed - Supercharged - SOLD
1990 Celica Alltrac "Emma" - 2.0L 4cyl Turbo AWD - 327awhp - 21-22mpg freeway, 17-ish mixed daily use - 13.2 @ 108 best so far.
2007 Chrysler 300C SRT8 "Ruby Rod" - 6.1L Hemi - pretty much bone stock driver - With 425hp
| | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | Very significant Ball joint slop. How Dangerous is this? Think I should park it until I'm done with the rebuild? 15 mb VIDEO, not for dial up. http://s557.photobucket.com/albums/ss15/wrcsixeight/?action=view¤t=MVI_3741.mp4Took a wider shot of BJ slop video as well and could see slop in the one of 4 visible Tie rod end as well. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | I've been browsing my Dodge photo album, and came across this gem. Turns out those Bump stops were replaced in Feb 2008 | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | I think these sway bar links are Urethane, Same age as the bump stops. Feb 2008 Raybestos part #5451065, though I thing mine were listed as Delco back then | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 868 Likes: 2 old hand | old hand Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 868 Likes: 2 | the 2 on the right are not Urethane, it doesn't distort or crack like that. I have the same end links on my van (Polyurethane came with Helwig Anti-Sway bar) for over 10 years and no cracking at all. Not all Polyurethane is created equal, mind you, but I still don't think it'd look like that after only 2 years.
1972 Dodge Van "Tigerlilly" - Blazing Copper/Sandstone Metallic - 3850 lbs empty 13.47 @ 97.53 mph N/A - 11.94 @ 113.33 mph N2O - old 360/727 + Nitrous (N2O)combo Viper V10 + 4L80E conversion in progress...
2009 Dodge Challenger SRT8 "Leelu" - TorRed - 6.1L Hemi/6 speed - Supercharged - SOLD
1990 Celica Alltrac "Emma" - 2.0L 4cyl Turbo AWD - 327awhp - 21-22mpg freeway, 17-ish mixed daily use - 13.2 @ 108 best so far.
2007 Chrysler 300C SRT8 "Ruby Rod" - 6.1L Hemi - pretty much bone stock driver - With 425hp
| | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | The two on the right are probably OEM, rubber, and 22 years old. It was just for comparison, sorry for mistyping. There will be many photos with the new part next to the old later on in this thread. It serves to help me convince myself that this expenditure of time and money is really necessary.
I enjoy taking close up photos, because when uploaded to the PC one can zoom in and see much more detail than the naked eye. All the above photos have been reduced in physical size and filesize 2/3 before uploading to photobucket. They all have been adjusted to best show the subject as well. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | The springs got a little attention today, to mitigate travel damage. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | Why ordering online can suck:
Fedex guy came today.
I pulled out the XRF ball joints.
The lowers I ordered part number.... k7025 t The lowers I received part number.... k7205 t
More delays dammitt.
More time for the PB blaster to work, I guess.
| | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | What is this: ' ' ' ' ' ' > . . . . . This is the ball stud on my new XRF tie rod end, and a reflection of my camera. In a week I will post what the Mcquay Norris TRE looks like in comparison. I ran the dental pics around the old ball joints again today before squirting more PB blaster. There was a crusty build up where lower control arm and lower ball joint meet. We'll see if it helps. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 Madman! | Madman! Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 | I almost thought it was a picture of an embrio | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 old hand | old hand Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 | I almost thought it was a picture of an embrio I can see that.... | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | An embryo? If that photo were part of a Rorschach test, a shrink might read something into that.
I just talked to XRF. They express FEDEXed the correct lower ball joints out yesterday. I should have them on Friday. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 old hand | old hand Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 | fedex express takes 3 days? wow, that's really express! lol. Good thing they made it right at no cost to you! Rock Auto is the sames way. I ordered a radiator from there once and ordered the brass/copper one and called them when I ordered to make sure that's what I would get. it costed 192, a plastic/aluminum one was about 120. When I got the plastic/aluminum one in the mail I was peeved, spent alot of extra money for the brass one and got a plastic one. and it came slightly damaged. Called rock auto and they refunded my money and I got to keep the radiator. I used it since it was free! | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | Went to the Autozone to rent the ball joint socket and was met by blank stares despite initially confirming with them 5 days ago that they did indeed have it in stock. Long story short is nobody seems to have one.
Might make one. Might buy one online. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 old hand | old hand Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 | | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | The upper ball joints are threaded in. Tremendous torque is required to break it loose. A regular 2 1/8 socket will not grab the flats tight enough. The socket I could purchase looks like this: I want to make something like this: But my friend with the welding equpiment wants to modify the design in an attempt to make things easier, but all he does is make it more complicated.
Last edited by wrcsixeight; August 04th 2010 9:25 pm.
| | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Jan 2010 Posts: 573 addict | addict Joined: Jan 2010 Posts: 573 | You know, your buddy could just take a long piece of 1/4 steel plate and make a large box wrench that will do the trick. The only hard part is cutting and grinding the hole to the right shape...... And although I definately don't reccomend this, when I had my '77 B200 years ago, I used my very large pipe wrench and a pipe extension. THe angle required sucked and my friend and I tried valiantly to admit each other to the hospital doing it though, but if you're desperate it's worth a try. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | My friend almost had me convinced to use the 3 foot pipewrench, but it looks too easy to screw up the control arm receptacle and the angle is not straight enough for my liking. I will use it only if there is no other option.
We've got something tacked together which will basically tightly grab the 4 flats of the BJ. I got some grinding ahead of me, and we are still arguing over how to attach the 3/4 inch breaker bar
I wish I went down to Autozone and confirmed they had the socket 6 days ago. I would then have just ordered one and taken the 50 dollar hit rather than spend hours fabricating something which might work.
| | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 old hand | old hand Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 | Sometimes you just need to buy the right tool! I had to buy a socket for my explorer when I changed the front hubs to manual ones. I don't know if I would of been able to do the job without that special socket. Do a google shopping search, you might come up with a cheaper one from a random source. I buy stuff from all kinds of websites if the price it cheaper than everyone else. Amazon has been an awesome source for tools and what not. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 Madman! | Madman! Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 | And although I definitely don't recommend this, when I had my '77 B200 years ago, I used my very large pipe wrench and a pipe extension. The angle required sucked and my friend and I tried valiantly to admit each other to the hospital doing it though, but if you're desperate it's worth a try. Funny analogy, but I don't recommend that either. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | Nick, after finding a part number online, I then Google it then find check ever hit, and variation of it. I am usually surprised that Amazon sells it, but it is not always the cheapest. What I hate is their free Supersaver Shipping, because it's like they tell the people at the warehouses,'take your sweet time getting this shipped.'
Amazon would have saved me 50$ over Rockauto had I bought all my TRE's BJ's and CA bushings there.
I will buy the special socket, only If what I fabricate does not work.
You get to see any northern lights? I saw the southern lights in southern New Zealand once, it was impressive.
Gotsta go, I got a lot of cut off wheels to spin into nubs. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 old hand | old hand Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 | The super saver shipping is funny, sometimes my order is like 5 bucks short of free shipping when shipping would cost more than 5 so I go find something else to buy for about 5 bucks then I get 2 things and free shipping and its cheaper than 1 thing with shipping. It do take a lil longer to get home tho. Sometimes you just gotta pay a lil more to get something faster. Rockauto is impressively fast. Just got my new caliper today, 2 days ago the fedex guy picked up the bad part for return. They usually have my stuff here 2 days after I order. I don't hardly go to the local parts stores anymore, they are usually twice the cost of rockauto. Besides, rockauto has ALOT better costumer service than the local stores. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | Holy frosted cupcakes Batman! The correct lower BJ's just arrived. 2 days Michigan to California!
XRF really came through paying the extra for 2 day shipping.
Gotsta go weld, and grind.
| | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | Failing grade on the fabrication exam. Homemade BJ socket bent with an 24 inch breaker just testing. No injuries Had to try though, and got to practice welding. The welds held, the stock was just too thin, but it was all that was available.
The Moog ball joint is slightly bigger than the one on the other side too.
Anyway took the van back off the jackstands. Ordering the damn Motherloving friggin' OTC 8034 socket.
Someone recommended just pressing out the threaded ball joint and that it would only strip the threads on the BJ, not the control arm. Any Opinions on that unpalatable idea? | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 old hand | old hand Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 | Holy frosted cupcakes Batman!
and Ordering the damn Motherloving friggin' OTC 8034 socket. Love it. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | The TRE's are supposed to be here Saturday according to fedex. The XRF Lower Ball joints have an interesting design. The vertical ridges were not present on any of the ball joints I inspected at the local Auto Parts stores. Should be a honeymoon fit. To those that have done this job: I was planning on busting the Upper BJ free , not removing it, with while every suspension component was still there to counteract the force of a 6 foot breaker bar. If I leave just the upper control arm in place, and begin work on the lower BJ and C.A., will it make Upper BJ removal more difficult. Should I just wait for the OTC 8034 socket to arrive? | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 old hand | old hand Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 | I know I not much help but I think you should wait for the right tools and do the job as the factory designed it to be done! And when you get done you can use your new tool and come do mine too since you already know what to do. lol. Really though, hang onto that socket, I might want to buy it from you one of these months! those teeth will make the fit tighter and will help keep in place better and what not. might make it harder to put in though. Good luck, you should have someone take a video, I wanna hear all the cussing. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 Madman! | Madman! Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 | Wait for the socket and leave the control arm in the van. Trust me when I tell you a vice bolted to a bench that is bolted to a concrete floor is no match for the rust and crud that has built up in your joint socket.
The new joints look sweet with the knurled finish. I bet they work well for slightly worn control arms. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 Madman! | Madman! Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 | By the way if you were able to press out the new ball joint I'd bet the new joint would not fit back in properly if you could even get the old one out. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Jan 2010 Posts: 573 addict | addict Joined: Jan 2010 Posts: 573 | I agree - wait for the socket. Believe me when I say the steel the arms are made of WILL flex and the new joint won't install tightly as it should (good thing junkyards around here have old Dodges - I needed to get a new arm in a hurry when I did this to my '77 B200), although I had a 20 ton press to my disadvantage......but the cost of the socket was less than the new arm, not to mention the tool throwing agravation it would have saved! | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | Okay, I am waiting on the socket to arrive. I was (past tense) thinking in the interim I could leave the UCA in place, and remove the spindle and lower arm, and start work on the LCA, while waiting for the socket.
Now, when BJ socket is in hand, I just plan on loosening the castle nut on the upper BJ, and breaking loose the upper BJ's on both sides first, while the whole suspension is there to spread the load of a 6 foot breaker bar tweaking the end of the arms.
I am much too prone to tool throwing curse fests. Nothing like having the wrong tools for a job to bring frustration levels past the meltdown point. One of my parent's neighbors calls me 'drought breaker' due to a solid couple hour curse fest with a pickle fork in hand, and too light a hammer.
The skies darkened along with my curses and it rained for the first time in months that day.
Lately I have been able to keep the temper in check and only muttering about uncooperative, conniving pieces of monkey shit.
What is the process of adding heat to help break things loose. How hot do you get the control arm? A regular propane torch enough? | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 old hand | old hand Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 | "tool throwing curse fests" I think its part of being a vanner! If you use a torch get some wax and use the heated metal to melt it in between the 2 pieces of metal, the wax will keep them from bonding back together when cooled down and provide a lil lube action to help the bj slip out a lil easier. Just be careful, don't need to burn yourself or start the van on fire. Although, if you start the van on fire at least you won't have to worry about fixing the ball joints! | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | Since XRF said they hoped to have the right hand threaded TRE's in stock in "a month or 2", I told the Tireclub to mail the Mcquay Norris TRE's instead. They were the same price. They are not the MN Global which are the Chinese equivalent, Nor the MN extreme(Napa gold), but the Mid grade, made in USA part. They arrived today, and I got to inspect them closely. You have seen my previous post of the polished ball stud on the XRF above. The Mcquay Norris part is not made the same way. It appears to have a stud within a ball, within the Housing. It takes about 50% more effort to move the stud by hand than the XRF, and when it does move it feels a little crusty. The XRF is buttery smooth in comparison. The MN ball seems a little bigger in the housing than the XRF, but XRF claims almost twice the pull out strength of the competition. The threads on the MN part are not very smooth, with a couple visible dings. The castle nut cannot be threaded to full depth by hand. The XRF part came with a netting over the threads to protect them. Here are some comparison photos XRF on the left. Now I have all the parts, and the time to work on it, and am waiting on the damn BJ socket to arrive. Effing Autozone. The TireClub did not give me the sticker to mail back the incorrect k7205t ball joints that were sent in the k7025t boxes. They fit 1994 to 1996 Dodge 2500 or 3500 Pick ups. I'm wondering if I get to keep them. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 old hand | old hand Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 | That's quite a difference! Sounds like the XRF is pretty good and looks stronger too! Looks like you have the same parts problems I do. Either what I want isn't in stock or not available or I get the wrong parts. And the part quality is just not right! for the price of some of these parts you think they would look and feel better than they do. It's sad how hard it is to find quality parts now a days! | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 4,463 Likes: 12 pooh-bah | pooh-bah Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 4,463 Likes: 12 | Hey, would some of the "flame wrench" experts please hop in here and offer some advice on using heat to help extract his balljoints?
I haven't done one of these, but I'd think you'd want to heat the balljoint more than the control arm, since the control arm is the part you intend to keep, and heating tends to weaken metal.
What do you think, oh mighty Wrenchers?
;0)
Clear skies!
-It's been such a LONG TIME... BlueShift>> 1981 Dodge Ram B250 Custom Sportsman Maxi Van It's what you learn after you know it all, that counts... Are you living to work, or working to live? Learning from my own mistakes is good, learning from yours would be much better! | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 868 Likes: 2 old hand | old hand Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 868 Likes: 2 | You would want to heat the part you wanted to expand, regardless, and so long as you left it with a long cool down period, it is unlikely you'd adversely affect the metal temper characteristics in a bad way. Long cool down = tempered for better ductility vs. brittle (fast cool down). Just my $.02 on that anyway.
1972 Dodge Van "Tigerlilly" - Blazing Copper/Sandstone Metallic - 3850 lbs empty 13.47 @ 97.53 mph N/A - 11.94 @ 113.33 mph N2O - old 360/727 + Nitrous (N2O)combo Viper V10 + 4L80E conversion in progress...
2009 Dodge Challenger SRT8 "Leelu" - TorRed - 6.1L Hemi/6 speed - Supercharged - SOLD
1990 Celica Alltrac "Emma" - 2.0L 4cyl Turbo AWD - 327awhp - 21-22mpg freeway, 17-ish mixed daily use - 13.2 @ 108 best so far.
2007 Chrysler 300C SRT8 "Ruby Rod" - 6.1L Hemi - pretty much bone stock driver - With 425hp
| | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 Madman! | Madman! Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 | You would want to heat the part you wanted to expand, regardless, and so long as you left it with a long cool down period, it is unlikely you'd adversely affect the metal temper characteristics in a bad way. Long cool down = tempered for better ductility vs. brittle (fast cool down). Just my $.02 on that anyway. Agreed, also always try to heat only to the point that is needed. I always heat a bit, try to remove the part, heat more if necessary, try again, etc. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | Thanks for the input.
Much appreciated.
If you can believe it, the Socket came today. Thank you Tool Topia. I didn't get the tracking number from them till this morning, and it arrived an hour later.
What is harder to believe is that I only got about 3 feet out on the breaker bar on the drivers side, and it busted loose.
CHK,FWEEEEP, gurgle,gurgle gurgle, ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!
On The passenger side, The Moog problem solver came out with 2 hands on an 18 inch breaker bar, and my foot on the frame and abut 70% available effort.
The BJ press I got from AZ was not tall enough to press out the lower ball joint, so I cut off the stud and they pressed out easy enough. No breaker bar required
The lower ball joints were still okay loose but nonoticable slop. The Moog PS is still pretty tight. The other upper BJ I can move the stud around by hand an 1/8 or 1/16 in any direction.
Pics later.
CHK,FWEEEEP, gurgle,gurgle gurgle, ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!
| | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 old hand | old hand Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 | Sweet! Glad everything came out better than you hoped! A few more beers and you might be ready to put the new ones in! | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | This is the drivers side, the exact orientation the coil spring came out. I like how the OEM isolator got crunched up and pushed to the middle of the spring. One other thing I was very curious about was the upper BJ receptacle, and the threads. It appears as if the Bj's cut their own threads on installation. Any specific Photo requests while I got it all opened up? | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 old hand | old hand Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 | how does you new isolator fit on the spring? | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | The Moog k160037 cover the whole top of the spring to about a 1 inch depth, inside and out. It's also got 3 triangles of rubber which fit between the coils and hold it in place You can see one triangle in the following photo. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 old hand | old hand Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 | interesting. I wonder how it will effect things having the isolator in the proper spot. was it making any kind of noise before or noticeably sitting lower on that side? I had a 79 mercury zephyr which was my first car, when we stripped it we found all the springs were broken. they were all coils. they were broke on the ends. never any symptoms or noises or anything. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | The CS isolators on both sides had migrated to the center. There was definitely metal to metal contact on both sides of the Van, both sides of the spring. I'll post better photos tomorrow.
My suspension has always made noise, or lightly clunked, or just generally felt loose, since I got the Van, 9 years ago.
| | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 old hand | old hand Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 | that metal on metal didn't wear any grooves or weaken the control arms did it? | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 4,463 Likes: 12 pooh-bah | pooh-bah Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 4,463 Likes: 12 | Awesome!!! -And the question we all have; what was the brew of choice for celebrating such a momentous occasion? ;0) While it's apart, would you please take a picture of the seat areas in the crossmember? Maybe a side to side comparison picture of the ball joints to directly contrast their features too? Same with the new and old coil springs. I'd also be interested in seeing if there's any obvious wear or sag in the various bushings as you get them out in the open. Guess I now have a good idea what I can be looking forward to whenever I pull out my coil springs! I have to wonder if I'd be ahead to ditch my still-sealed n.o.s. OEM isolators and go with the ones you found. That locking/locating feature certainly seems to be far better engineering. In all the excitement of such a walloping success, please don't overlook the bit about the teeth in the bushing cores and having the van suspension loaded before tightening down the control arm bolts so the teeth bite into the correct position at rest. I can't wait to hear the results of your first test rides - that slop in the ball joint and the old isolators and worn springs should make for a night and day difference. With all the new parts and your new shocks, you're going to rock! Now comes the critical task of selecting some suitable eye candy for the official Vanner's suspension test... Clear skies!
-It's been such a LONG TIME... BlueShift>> 1981 Dodge Ram B250 Custom Sportsman Maxi Van It's what you learn after you know it all, that counts... Are you living to work, or working to live? Learning from my own mistakes is good, learning from yours would be much better! | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | Wish I could say that I had a high quality beer to celebrate, but I find cans fit in my fridge the nicest, and I'm still on a budget so the beer was:
Pabst Blue Ribbon.
The lower CA bushings are showing 22 years of weight but are not as bad as expected.
Many more photos tonight, but my internet signal is getting blocked at nighttime when the leaves start collecting dew.
Nick, the bottom of the springs which fit into the lower CA shows no sign of rubbing, just the tops, on both sides where the isolators migrated toward the center. Sorry for the need for clarification. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,148 old hand | old hand Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,148 | Do make sure as to lubricate the fresh ball joints with cutting oil (2n1 works pretty well)as they go in as they do require cutting their own threads each time they are put in... Best of luck and great job so far!!
How do you know it won't work? Have you tried it, yet?? Mad Anthony Vanners - Looking for more members
| | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | I did not get to start work on the suspension till afternoon today, and all I managed to do was degrease and derust 3 of the 4 arms. Here's a better photo of the Isolators The black spot on the New Moog Isolator is just to block out the flash. The springs have the same height. Here's the LCA bushing from a few angles. Drivers side LCA spring pocket. I had to dig out about 3/8" of muck from the bottom of this pocket. The old spring the flat part was touching the coil. The new one has a 3/8" gap | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 old hand | old hand Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 | I wonder how long those new springs will stay black. Did you paint them or is that how they came? How much did these things cost? I would like to know cause this will be in my vans future too. Springs, Ball Joints, Isolator and anything else u got. Thanks for sharing! Love the pictures! | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | The springs came with a black finish, but they were beating each other up in the Moog box. Very Poorly packed. I spray painted only the worn areas. The springs were ~112$ but shipping was 25 bucks. I ordered a bunch of other parts which did not really add to the shipping. Everything minus the ball joints and TRE's cost 32 to ship from Rockauto.
The XRF ball joints are about the same price as Moog. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | Here is the Pocket which houses the top of the Coil spring. The red arrows indicate metal on metal contact areas. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 old hand | old hand Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 | 112 for both springs? not too bad. That pocket looks pretty good! did you clean that at all? I don't think those little gouges will be a problem. Just make sure they aren't sharp so they won't wear holes into you new isolators. Great job so far! You kinda making me want to do mine. after this 2+ week brake job though I don't think I wanna do anything for a while. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | You can also get the husky springs for like 20 bucks less than the MOOG. It could be another case of the same part in different boxes.
The gouges can barely be felt with a finger, not really a factor. It is interesting to see the original color paint on top of where the isolators were. Guess I got to clean up there as well. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | The press which was not tall enough to press out my lower ball joint was also incapable of pressing out the LCA bushing. I drilled about 8 holes in the rubber with a 5/16 inch bit, then worked the drill bit back and forth around the perimeter. A little work with some needle nose vice grips removed all the rubber. I fed a hack saw blade through the bushing sleeve, and cut 95% of the way through it. I used an angle grinder and cutoff wheel to notch the bushing lip in line with the hack saw. I then broke out the sawzall and cut out a 1 inch cylinder from the center of the bushing. Flipped it over, braced it. Cold chisel opposite the hack saw cut , and big hammer. Half dozen hits and I pull the ring out with 2 fingers. Same thing other side. Took about 20 minutes for the first CA, about 5 minutes for the second. I meant to take photos, but it just didn't happen. My DS UCA bushings are 3 years old. I’m not replacing them. My PS UCA bushings look like they were replaced at the same time the Moog ball joint was installed, a decade ago or more. But I removed them in a similar manner. The uppers are more difficult because the pivot bar is still in the way. I popped off part number 4(the rattler), cut off all the rubber I could reach with a razor knife, drilled out the rubber, I then busted out the dremel. I have these harbor freight diamond cut off wheels. One of these cut the bushing sleeve almost flush to the control arm in about a minute. Same thing other side of the bushing. Cold chisel, hammer, done. With one bushing out, the pivot arm can be removed. I used the BJ press to push out the other UCA bushing. One of the TRE’s fought a little bit on removal from the sleeve. It seems everything was more corroded on the passenger side. The passenger side sees more puddles and is the side closest to the ocean when I park next to it. Spent the rest of the day with wire brushes and chemicals prepping the control arms and TRE sleeves for paint. A mindless task. My new springs are a little heavier. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 old hand | old hand Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 | Thems new springs sure are pretty. Maybe the old ones lost 3 pounds 7 ounces in rust Sounds like chop chop and taking out a lil at a time to get the old stuff out. The first time always takes the longest, the next time it always gets faster. I know how it goes with the pictures, I try to take as many as I can when I working on my van too but sometimes you just get so engaged in what you do you forget. Keep up the good work! Would love to see the cleaned control arms! | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 Madman! | Madman! Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 | I've never ad any luck pressing out old rusty bushings. I have a buddy with a huge press that would prolly do it, but was always afraid it would bend the arms. Over the many years I have done this stuff I still do it similar to the way you did it, only I burn out the old rubber. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | It was recommended to me to burn out the rubber, but I just hate that smell. The drill bit worked real good, it was just a little difficult to get it started without it walking around the perimeter. Of course the bit is toast now, but it was just a Cheapo HF bit
When I had the DS UCA bushings done in Mexico, the guy just used a hammer and a punch. Took him 45 minutes to get one bushing out, I was done in under 10. Looks like whoever replaced the PS UCA bushings also went about it the difficult way, the edges of the receptacle were all effed up. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 Madman! | Madman! Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 | Understandable! On the other hand, I used to drag race and I love the smell Works either way tho. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | Got the lowers painted. Pressed in the bushings. Used some end grain red oak to keep from crushing the arms. Used a quik clamp to hold the red oak in place. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 old hand | old hand Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 | | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 4,463 Likes: 12 pooh-bah | pooh-bah Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 4,463 Likes: 12 | Thanks for posting all the pics Wrcsixeight! I was really surprised at the original spring being the same height as the new one. I would have bet on it sagging down some. Your bushings are in remarkably good condition too for their age and all the hard driving you've done. The surface cracking is typical, and I think it even mentions as much somewhere in the service manuals. Those great pictures really show off the teeth I'd mentioned. I hope you'll show me how you made the inset pictures sometime - that's an awesome thing! Looks like there's still factory paint up inside that upper coil spring pocket too; who'd have thought? With just a little cleanup and painting, you should be good for the next 100k miles! here's a thought - if you're wanting a small amount of paint on a budget, for on some of your new parts and other areas which need some touch up, you might do alright by using some of the spray can appliance epoxy like you'd find in a Lowe's or other hardware store. It would at least be better than the thin black paint on your springs which may only be meant as a preservative, like on replacement body panels. Before I discovered Rust Bullet (and that the local automotive paint store would actually sell real automotive paints to me...) I sprayed some of the parts around my radiator and core support with Rustoleum black appliance epoxy to keep them from rusting. It's held up so remarkably well that I've actually left it on the core support and side panels. Some of those parts were left out leaning up against my van in the sun and weather for about 6 months too, before I ever got around to reinstalling them, and several years later they still show no rust! It's held up to insect strikes too, so the paint is quite respectable for the low price. Once it's dry, it even resists fuel and brake fluid for short exposures. With all the work you've done you may eventually be interested in a heavier preservative coating. I've been using Rust Bullet Blackshell on my undercarriage with superb results. The Master Mechanic who rebuilt my van's rear end, and who also builds race cars, swears by it and uses it on everything he builds. He said he hasn't found a better undercarriage paint. http://www.rustbullet.com/productcart/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=125I usually buy quarts, since moisture in the air causes any unused Rust Bullet paint to skin over and set up fairly quickly. I've also used their silver automotive paint on my roof and interior. It's tough stuff. Here's a link to their test page, where several test labs compared it to other corrosion-resistant paints such as Wasser and POR-15: Their test results page: http://www.rustbullet.com/testing.aspHere's possibly the most interesting test: http://www.rustbullet.com/IndTesting/500Test/500Test.aspRust Bullet is an exterior paint too, not requiring a topcoat like POR-15 and others, which don't even contain UV inhibitors. I've had Rust Bullet on my van's roof in direct sunlight outdoors 24/7 for several years now, and it shows no signs of deterioration. And I haven't waxed my roof... it's eventually getting some more paint on top. Till then I'm treating it as an experimental torture test. Say, I'm really enjoying this thread. It's full of really useful (and otherwise hard to find) information. Between your thorough research, determination, attention to detail, and obvious love for your van, it's inspiring. Please keep posting your progress! Clear skies!
-It's been such a LONG TIME... BlueShift>> 1981 Dodge Ram B250 Custom Sportsman Maxi Van It's what you learn after you know it all, that counts... Are you living to work, or working to live? Learning from my own mistakes is good, learning from yours would be much better! | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 21,211 Likes: 25 Supreme Master | Supreme Master Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 21,211 Likes: 25 | Wow...great job!!! Too bad I'm just now reading this thread. I have a ball joint socket that you could've had for FREE
Nate Breece | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | I'm sure you were all crestfallen without my updating my progress yesterday with a new picture.
Lemme say I'm sick of rust, phosphoric acid, wire brushes, and paint, and thinking abouts them, and seeing them when I close my eyes at night.
I Got the lower BJ's pressed in with a 60 ton press at my buddies place of work. Everything's painted. Every nut and bolt derusted, Everything's spotlessly clean and ready to be reassembled.
I was just assembling the driver's side. The BJ threaded in nice and smooth, I was putting the rotor and spindle on. Thought I was forgetting something, nope, got the caliper on the back side. Okay, proceed.
Got the spindle on the lower BJ and nut threaded, getting ready to thread the top nut on the upper ball joint stud to set the spindle and it hits me.
I forgot the spring.
So I put all the tools away, and I'm going to go drink a lot of beer instead.
Pics tomorrow night.
| | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 894 old hand | old hand Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 894 | Im thinking I should have paid more attention to this thread when I started mine... oh the lessons we learn from our own hurriedness. Not doing the whole shebang but enough of it that I should listen and learn.
1989 Dodge Shorty, Scarlette Widow(A demon in disguise) 1992 Chevy G-20 Conversion (the White Elephant)Gone on to the Final truckin
Memeber of the Toopa Sinner Tribe (2011) Independent Trucker for now (since 2009)
| | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 old hand | old hand Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 | I hate when I put something together and have to take it apart again cause I forgot something. It really takes the joy of a job well done away! If you want all those clean parts to stay pretty and don't wanna paint everything black use some clear engine enamel. Looks awesome. Thinking of using that when I clean my front end up. everything will be steel colored instead of black. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 4,463 Likes: 12 pooh-bah | pooh-bah Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 4,463 Likes: 12 | I've *never* done that before... I'm glad you caught that one when you did! You know, this calls for import beer... ;0) Clear skies!
-It's been such a LONG TIME... BlueShift>> 1981 Dodge Ram B250 Custom Sportsman Maxi Van It's what you learn after you know it all, that counts... Are you living to work, or working to live? Learning from my own mistakes is good, learning from yours would be much better! | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | Getting ready to put the tie rods back on. Only thing I forgot this time was the DS upper control arm bump stop. I put the jack under the arms to lift it up for access, but after it lifted only an inch and a half, it came off the jack stand. The old springs were about 5 inches before it would lift off the jack.
Had a couple Becks and bud and weisers last night and dreamed that someone stole one of my shocks and one of my springs.
Back to work. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | All done. She rests about 3/4 inch higher on the passenger side, and about 1 1/4 inch higher on the driver's side.
I need an alignment in a bad way. I got the toe in passable, but the camber is all effed up despite putting the pivot bars back in the same spots, I think. It does ride stiffer but not too stiff. I'm glad I went with the HD springs. It sure corners a lot flatter.
I can tell just sitting and moving around in it it does not move around as much. I need to find a real flat parking spot to get the PSI differential in the rear air bags correct. The 15 extra PSI difference I'm been keeping on the driver's side now seems excessive.
Last year, after I replaced my steering gear and coupler, I thought all the remaining steering slop was the Reman steering gear and the U joint for the tilt steering wheel. The slop has been reduced by 50% over that with the recent work.
Got to go clean up the work area. Pics later.
| | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | Part of the issue when doing work like this is where to draw the line as to how far to take it. I could easily have spent another 2 days/2 weeks dissolving rust, prepping and painting. I almost removed the engine cradle/ cross member to de rust that and paint it. One thing I couldn't pass up was painting the Coil spring pockets. Of course this made for a lot of wirebrushing, wirewheeling, rust converter dribbling down my arm and paint, and I could have gone so much further, but forced myself to say "Good Enough, it'll never be a show car" There nothing like having a professional painting booth either. Of course I still need to pull the Sway bar and derust that, and I certainly could have pulled the center link and drag link and Idler arms to paint and prep them as well, but again, I had to draw a line. That line is obvious in this photo: I got to hit up a junk yard and get another strut rod before the alignment. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 old hand | old hand Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 | Very Nice! I don't know where to draw the line and when I have things apart I always have to try to derust and paint them. but I eventually want my van for show. Sometimes it makes things take 3 times longer but I think it's worth it. For you being near salt water its important to paint things for preservation and aesthetics purposes. Being in wisconsin painting things makes it easier to clean the road salt off and in the springtime the mud off! I like using gloss paint cause it makes things clean up a lil easier. One thing I wanna do on my van is find all the areas where mud and whatnot gets trapped and make it smooth so it can't get trapped and cause problems. Great Job. Now I can't look forward to reading up on your progress! You need to start another large project to keep me entertained and inspired! Again, Awesome Job! | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 4,463 Likes: 12 pooh-bah | pooh-bah Joined: Mar 2007 Posts: 4,463 Likes: 12 | That looks great Wrcsixeight! I hope it lives up to your expectations and then some. I'm sure you'll rest more peacefully knowing you've got a solid suspension again.
With all your new parts I think that getting the wheel alignment dialed in is really important. You should probably get the replacement strut arm first though. That could alter your camber and toe-in quite a bit.
Here's the best advice I can give you on checking your camber alignment by yourself. Since the camber on these vans is supposed to be between 0 degrees and +1 degrees, you could get an approximate idea of how close you are by hanging a plumb bob (string with a weight on the end) from the top of the rim, and seeing how close it comes to the bottom of the rim.
All too conveniently, 1 degree equals about 1/4" over 14.5", almost exactly what we have in the case of a 15" rim!
If your plumb bob string just touches both top and bottom of the rim, you're at about 0 degrees, and if the string's out about 1/4" at the bottom, you're just about at +1 degree. If the bottom touches, the camber is negative, which is no good, and you should go the other direction!
It's a good idea to bounce your van up and down by pushing on the front and rear bumpers a few times, then checking the reading again.
I like Beck's beer too, but mixing the Beck's and Bud sounds like you may have reopened World War II from the sound of the crazy dream you had! Think I'll take it as sound advice to avoid that particular combination!! I wonder if a more neutral country (like say, Canada...) may be able to come to the rescue with some of it's wonder elixers?
;0)
Clear skies!
-It's been such a LONG TIME... BlueShift>> 1981 Dodge Ram B250 Custom Sportsman Maxi Van It's what you learn after you know it all, that counts... Are you living to work, or working to live? Learning from my own mistakes is good, learning from yours would be much better! | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 Madman! | Madman! Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 | Looks GREAT! I can see that line Been through those something just doesn't seem right scenarios myself.....OOPS! | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | Drove the Van up to the junkyard on the highway. Even with the mis alignment it takes about 60% less effort to keep the van in the center of the lane. It drives so much nicer, and no more creaking and groaning clunking.
Got a new strut Rod. My previous one had a tack weld holding the nut onto the end of the bar. There were 6 dodge Vans in there and I had to get out of there before I started going into packrat mode. They got me for 17 dollars. Not as cheap as expected.
One Dodge had a sweet set of Helwig helper leaf springs. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | I guess they changed the length of the strut rods in the magnum era Dodge Vans. It's not much, but enough that I will be returning to the JY tomorrow for the other one from the same van. The new strut rod actually lined up with the lower control arm bolt holes better than the older one upon reinstallation. Here are the old lower ball joints. Because the BJ press I rented from AZ was not tall enough to press out the BJ's, I cut off the studs. You can see a groove on the ball, I assume it is for the distribution of grease. These were worn but not too bad. I do not know if these are original or not. You can see how much heftier the Moog ball joint is than the other upper. The Moog is still tight. I am keeping it. I believe this was one source of creaking and groaning. These Moog problem solvers strut rod bushings are only 2.5 years old. There is a metal ring inside the forward rubber bushing. Some silicone spray cleaned them up nicely, Some Syl glide silicone paste should keep them quiet. If It does not, New ones will be oordered. Where they attach to the frame, I apparently did not scrape it clean 2.5 years ago when I installed them. This time they were wirewheeled to a shiny smooth surface on both sides. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 894 old hand | old hand Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 894 | Just a curiosity question here... While you had it all apart and did such a nice job on the suspension, why not have detailed the brakes too? Nice work , cant wait to save up and do mine as nice.
1989 Dodge Shorty, Scarlette Widow(A demon in disguise) 1992 Chevy G-20 Conversion (the White Elephant)Gone on to the Final truckin
Memeber of the Toopa Sinner Tribe (2011) Independent Trucker for now (since 2009)
| | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | Just a curiosity question here... While you had it all apart and did such a nice job on the suspension, why not have detailed the brakes too? Nice work , cant wait to save up and do mine as nice. It was a time and money and lazy thing. I needed it back together so I can work. What was more important to me was rust stopping/slowing and safety, durability and longevity rather than the appearance of the control arms or suspension. I can do the calipers at a later date If I feel the urge. I am not really impressed with my brakes or calipers, and would like something with more bite. I've never looked into aftermarket calipers, if they exist for our vans, but the next pads I get are gonna have to be more aggressive. I'd rather replace them more often than have anemic brakes. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 old hand | old hand Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 | I haven't looked into different calipers yet but I know they make drilled and slotted rotors and if you get the drums drilled it will help too. I using raybestoes professional grade shoes in rear and raybetsoes advanced technology pads in the front. when I finally get the parts to complete this never ending brake job I will let you know how the new pads and shoes work. never spent that much on pads before but I wanted something better. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | Does your '92 have dual piston Calipers? I wonder if the Magnum era with dual pistons would fit. I looked on Summitt but all they list is reman brake calipers These are the pads I've got now, about the same price as your Raybestos advanced at Rockauto, but Napa is pricey: Napa Safety stop Don't forget to bend the tangs down on the outer pads to keep them from rattling in the calipers. They've got plenty of life left in them, but I doubt they could lock up my wheels. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 old hand | old hand Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 | I got the single piston calipers. I thinking they will stop well. I put those thin metal spacers on the pads before I installed them. I found out my rattling was caused by loose calipers. I got reman ones and they for some reason fit better than the ones that were on there. the new hardware hold it tighter too. The piston dont move much at all right now, with the spacers and the thick pads it is very tight and hopefully will allow more pressure to be applied. The piston is fully pushed in and I can barley get the caliper over the rotor. good fit. kinda hoping that tight fit didn't cause that one new caliper to fail like it did. Will find out soon. I gonna be getting the rest of the parts in the next couple days and finish the rear and then put caliper on again and bleed everything and see how it works. lookin forward to driving it without the rattle. I know 92 was a crossover year. I believe I have the magnum engine but it just don't have the name on it. in 92 they added more power to the engines and this was the start of the magnum engines. stuff like roller components and I forget what else. I know the 92 318 has alot more than the one in my 88 ramcharger. 88 was the first year for the throttle body in the 318 too. I always seem to get vehicles in the crossover years. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 old hand | old hand Joined: May 2010 Posts: 741 | Looked on rockauto, the dual piston didn't start till 98 and the way they mount looks different too. Might be something that can work if the thing the caliper mounts to is changed. Which I think is the spindle. and then I don't know if a spindle from a newer van will work on the previous gen vans or 2 previous gen models as the case may be. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 894 old hand | old hand Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 894 | Autozone sells a ready to bolt on set for 89 I beleive its Morse?? Thats what I bought for mine, 79.99 plus 23 core charge. Special order in store or ship to home all hardwear and pads included. the pads are lifetime warranty so you never pay for pads, but to get the pads replaced I think you have to take the calipers in too, what a pain
1989 Dodge Shorty, Scarlette Widow(A demon in disguise) 1992 Chevy G-20 Conversion (the White Elephant)Gone on to the Final truckin
Memeber of the Toopa Sinner Tribe (2011) Independent Trucker for now (since 2009)
| | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | Many years ago I bought a set of reman calipers from Pep boys. My old ones were not leaking, but they were only like 15 bucks each with the exchange. Even though I replaced a lot of braking components at that time, I noticed no improvement in braking performance, and just figured that's the way it is. Anemic braking.
I still have to get that alignment but I am still impressed with how much better it drives. I now steer toward the bumps in the road and get a perverse joy at not hearing any clunking or feeling bump steer. It's kind of hard to drive in my usual economy fashion now, kind of like when I put the Flowmaster on it and got all exited about the healthy burble under throttle. Now I'm like: "I can take that turn at twice the speed as before."
On one curvy road I found I could drive it a lot faster, and when I hit the brakes harder, the front does not nose dive, and the van does not try to pull one way or the other. Pulling up to a drive through, I could tell I was sitting up higher, and getting in and out any of the doors, I can tell it is up higher as well.
I was walking back to the van from the laundromat the other night, and saw something shiny under my van that looked wet, then I realized it was the new paint. Best damn looking paint on my whole van is my lower control arms. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | Just got the alignment. They would not let me watch. How aggravating, but understandable. When the Tech went for a test drive, I jumped in. How strange to be a passenger. He was impressed with how smooth it drove, kept saying how nice the engine sounded. Told me how his buddy had to replace the steering gear on his '92 b350 3 times till he gave up trying to find a tighter one. Apparently the reman's Gears are just resealed, and resold with all the wear still on the worm gear. Anyway it now drives real straight, and corners way nicer with no screeching tires when driving over painted lines. I had put way too much Toe in when I put it back together. Here are the before and after numbers: Before: After: Kind of looks like my rear axle is bent. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Jul 2010 Posts: 29 newbie | newbie Joined: Jul 2010 Posts: 29 | Here in the land of the tool challenged, we have to make do with what we can come up with. Those upper BJ's can be re & re with a pipe wrench in a pinch........did a few before making these (crude) sockets. Uploaded with ImageShack.usIf you look at those BJ's they are actually square, and if you can find the right size of square tubing (or shim it) you can save a bundle of work. On mine, strips were bent around a new BJ and tacked, then welded to that piece of pipe. Have never had a problem getting the uppers out. I use "antiseize" on the new ones. The lowers can be driven out with a hammer, damage free. My anvil is a 4 X 4" steel block about six inches long and is placed under the end of the lower control arm near the BJ. A short lenght of pipe (about 1 1/2" dia.) with a handle welded to it will drive it right out. To install the new put the anvil under the BJ and drive the the lower control arm down on to the BJ with a larger section of pipe. This metod works and is damage free if you use a bit of care in your set up. Have done many vans and Volares, when I had them too. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Jul 2010 Posts: 29 newbie | newbie Joined: Jul 2010 Posts: 29 | Planned to say something on front springs too. Yes they do come out easily if you let the wheel hang down unsupported. No compressor needed, they aren't going anywhere.
In a B100/150 they are usually 3/4" wire, which I find too soft and mushy. The next one up is 13/16", then comes 7/8" dia. 7/8" is too stiff and rides like a "lumberwagon" 13/16" is my choice for a reasonable ride that is not "bottoming" in the slightest dip in the road. I have vans with all three diameters installed and these thoughts are my preferences.
Use an open end wrench to easily check which size you have. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: May 2013 Posts: 4 stranger | stranger Joined: May 2013 Posts: 4 | Just a quick post not to High Jack the thread. Today checked my front suspension: upper & lower ball joints new, tie rod ends, idler arms & drag link new, vehicel still wandered. Checked steering box and they are very much the same as the old B bodied cars and similar to the A body cars; a hour spent resetting the box after removing it and cleaning it. I let my wife drive it for road test. No I don't dislike my wife of 29 years....damn she puts up with a lot.
Last edited by Jimm; May 24th 2013 5:56 pm.
| | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Mar 2014 Posts: 161 member | member Joined: Mar 2014 Posts: 161 | I'm really sorry to see all the pictures from this job are down. I'm getting ready to do the ball joints & shocks on my 1989 B250 and can use all the advise I can get. | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 veteran | OP veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,847 Likes: 42 | | | | Re: 1989 B250 Front Suspension Rebuild | Joined: Mar 2014 Posts: 161 member | member Joined: Mar 2014 Posts: 161 | Thank you wrcsixeight for reposting these pics! | | |
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