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#326254 - September 15th 2009 11:35 am Re: Building high MPG Motor for a 93 Vhevy Van ***** [Re: racprops]
wookee Offline
carpal tunnel

Registered: April 14th 2003 12:00 pm
Posts: 7535
Loc: Joppa Md. U.S.A.
I am running a 203/212 duration cam in the stock 350 "crate" engine in my Early Chevy right now.
I put close to 70,000 mile on this engine with the stock cam in this engine.
It only got 9 miles to the gallon.
With this cam not only did the performance of the engine "wake up".
The gas milage increased signifacantly.
11 around town 16 on the hiway.
On the cheap stuff.Driving the van like i stole it......

I have been watching this thread.I have an 89GMC with a 350/700R4 trans TBI injected.
It only gets 11 MPG.
I have a H.O. 350 crate engine setting here waiting to go in the GMC.
I am on the fence weather to run a carb or fuel injection.
I just feel like the puter will not allow the egine to wind out as tight (5 grand first gear shifts)as the carb HEI set lets the engine do......

This low end torque cam made this egine/van really nasty light to light

.........Wookee


Edited by wookee (September 15th 2009 11:38 am)
Edit Reason: added more BS
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Its a "Van Thing"
A life style you have to LIVE to understand!



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#326263 - September 15th 2009 12:07 pm Re: Building high MPG Motor for a 93 Vhevy Van [Re: wookee]
Doc 2% of Canada, EH!!!! Offline
Vanner

Registered: June 10th 2003 12:00 pm
Posts: 12692
Loc: Burlington, On, Canada Eh !!!!
I guess I am doing good with my 78, stock 305 2BBL with 2:73 gears..stock exhaust with the pizze platter sized original Cat.

I am getting around 17 per gallon @ 55 mph pulling the trailer, about 15 at 70 MPH
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I don't need to be honoured by Vanning, I am honoured to be Vanning !
Supporting Vanning, by going Vanning In A Van !
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Ottawa Valley Vans
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#326348 - September 15th 2009 3:47 pm Re: Building high MPG Motor for a 93 Vhevy Van [Re: Doc 2% of Canada, EH!!!!]
racprops Offline
newbie

Registered: September 08th 2009 10:18 pm
Posts: 33
Loc: Phoenix AZ
Well I am being a bit piggy, my van does get 17.73 MPG at 70 MPH.

I want more....

I think the computer controled FI either TBI or TPI is the best way to go...and will give it to me.

I am getting a Romulator that with my Laptop will let me tweak and fine tune the Van like a $3000.00 dyno tune and blueprint job...and I can do it over and over again and again...

The problem with carbs is the get messed up at low RPMs and will dump fuel with you get low vacuun...

And timing control...all machanial..very limited range I have seen a computer controled system go from 40 BTDC to 40 ATDC in a split second, and knock sensors will and can save your motor...

Add in that the average life of Carb motors was 100,000... but I have seen FI motor easly do 200/400,000 miles... My friend Jon has 2004 Ford F250 Van with 400,000 on it, and it still runs good.

I think because of the delay in starting which allow oil pressure to get up and no shot of gas pumped in my the accurator pump every start up...

I would not go back to a carb and spark system unless a Nuke was air bursted and burned out the clips...until then give me FI.

My 2 cents worth.. as a 61 year old car nut...

Rich

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#326371 - September 15th 2009 4:29 pm Re: Building high MPG Motor for a 93 Vhevy Van [Re: racprops]
racprops Offline
newbie

Registered: September 08th 2009 10:18 pm
Posts: 33
Loc: Phoenix AZ
Sadly I fell out of love with computer controled cars with the 96 and newer models, those OBDII system are much harder to tweak...

Rich

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#326403 - September 15th 2009 6:10 pm Re: Building high MPG Motor for a 93 Vhevy Van [Re: racprops]
Superbeast Offline

Madman!


Registered: October 25th 2001 12:00 pm
Posts: 28121
Loc: Dayton, New Jersey, U.S.A.
So all of this is to improve from almost 18 MPG? Question for you, and please don't take this the wrong way. What is your projected rate of return on this whole endeavor? Yes, you may be able to get it up to 20 or 25 MPG, but at what cost. So far all the stuff you have been talking about seems rather expensive, unless of coarse, you already have it all, but with the 2 to 7 MPG increase, will it ever pay for itself? The only reason, I'm asking is because it seems like a big expense, and a lot of work without much return.
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Tricky Truckers, N.J.
Van Clan Plus One, Canada
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"Coolness ALWAYS trumps comfort"

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#326408 - September 15th 2009 6:22 pm Re: Building high MPG Motor for a 93 Vhevy Van [Re: Superbeast]
Doc 2% of Canada, EH!!!! Offline
Vanner

Registered: June 10th 2003 12:00 pm
Posts: 12692
Loc: Burlington, On, Canada Eh !!!!
You can get almost 10 percent increase by making the rear tire 2 sizes bigger or there abouts...

All you have to do is wait until the rears wear out
_________________________
I don't need to be honoured by Vanning, I am honoured to be Vanning !
Supporting Vanning, by going Vanning In A Van !
I hate it, when real life interferes with Vanning !
Van Clan Plus One, Vanning since 1977 !
Ontario Federation Of Truckers (Vanner's)
Ottawa Valley Vans
Founder,Mixed Bag Truckers

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#326429 - September 15th 2009 7:26 pm Re: Building high MPG Motor for a 93 Vhevy Van [Re: Doc 2% of Canada, EH!!!!]
racprops Offline
newbie

Registered: September 08th 2009 10:18 pm
Posts: 33
Loc: Phoenix AZ
The tire size is funny...

Why, well I have 130,000+ on a chevy motor, a stock Chevy motor..

I had a 87 I WAS going to fix up the one with the knocking 305 that I may use for parts like the 305 injectors and the heads...so I already have the 90% done 350...

I am 61 years young and figuer to get this rebuilt so I cruse around in it for the next 10 to 20 years...

And it is something I have been trying to do for the past 20+ years as well.. so might as well do it...

Rich

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#326467 - September 15th 2009 9:05 pm Re: Building high MPG Motor for a 93 Vhevy Van [Re: racprops]
swimmster Offline
old hand

Registered: February 16th 2008 9:41 am
Posts: 1189
Loc: New York
Whoever you're talking to about the 305 heads being a no no obviously did it wrong. MANY of the car mags did this swap with excellent low end results.. as for using a carb, you will NOT get a low vaccum signal with this setup. the air velocity caused by the big bore and the small intake ports creates an excellent vaccum signal at the venturi's which means you get to de-jet the carb and turn down your idle mixture screws. This all causes MUCH better atomization of the fuel mixture. air speed in a TPI, TBI or carb is ALWAYS a good thing.. say with a Dual plane manifold for instance.. some cylinders tend to draw more or at least recieve more mixture than others. the increase in velocity helps aleviate much of that issue because the air is flowing so much faster. typical A/F ratio is between 14 and 16:1. the more you can atomize the fuel, the higher you can get this ratio and still get the same power. If you could get the fuel to turn into a straight up gas ie. FUMES, you would be burning a very small amount of fuel with the same power. one of the MOST fuel efficient carbs going is the Quadrajet. the primaries are smaller than most any 2 barrel carb out there. when tuned properly, I have gotten 27 mpg out of a 305 on the highway. I have gotten 22 mpg on a 350 with a q-jet in a 94 GMC pickup.

The only vortec heads i have used were brand new 97 year truck casting vortec heads. they are identical to performance casting vortecs except the exhaust valve seat is hardened and the material around the seat a bit thicker.. port work there makes them as good or better than the more expensive performance ones. depending on what YEAR of heads you use will detrmine what manifold you use. up to 1987 was one intake, then 87 to 95ish was another. 96 had the vortec which will never bolt to an older intake or vice verse. then the odd variations like the TPI and the LT1 intake.

Problem is, if you want power, you trade efficiency and vice verse. you can't have them both.. just the best compromise you can find. bang for the buck? I still swear by 305 heads with the chamber edges rounded over slightly.. just enough to get rid of the sharp corners. on top of a stock 350 with factory dished pistons to keep the compression down to 9:1. set of headers, a q-jet intake and carb, and a finely tuned distributor.. high output ignition coil for HEI and gapping the plugs out towards .050 to get a large spark to burn everything. that setup, done right, and I can get you 25-26 mpg in your van.. given the right rear end gears.. 3:08 gearset would do you real well with a slightly taller tire and just a 700r4 overdrive trans. oh, and shaving some lead off the right foot helps out too.. consulting with a REPUTABLE cam manufacturer with which ever combo you end up deciding on would yeild you possibly even better returns. when it comes to your computer program, unless you have a flashable OBD-II system, you're going to be stuck burning EEPROMS unless you spring for the module that you can plug in tot he prom socket and write maps on the fly.. sort of.. you can;t change the maps while running.. you have to create the map, load it to the module and see if it does what you wnat.. if not, you have to make another map and load it up again.. nothing I know of, as of a few years ago, has the ability to change map info on the fly in an OBD-I system. today though, I could be wrong. new things come out all the time. There is also, out there somewhere, a HOME BREW digital fuel injection stand alone system you can buy in a kit form and build it yourself. supposed to be highly programmable and can be done on the fly with laptop.


while i'm thinkin about it.. the TPI system is not the kind of injection system you would like to believe it is. the injectors on a TPI system do NOT fire individually. they fire the same as a TBI.. one bank, then the other bank.. Look at the wiring diagrams for all the TPI systems.. all the injectors go to 2 terminals on the computer. left and right bank. This is HORRENDOUS when it comes to atomized fuel. you have an injector firing 3 times at the valve before it ever opens and sucks in a bunch of puddled fuel..


Ok.. my brain's gettin fried remembering all this stuff..
_________________________
Yeah..... I know I know.... It's NOT a van... But if you squint, It could be a REALLY long van?


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#326469 - September 15th 2009 9:06 pm Re: Building high MPG Motor for a 93 Vhevy Van [Re: swimmster]
swimmster Offline
old hand

Registered: February 16th 2008 9:41 am
Posts: 1189
Loc: New York
Also.. any truck front accessory mounts will work in the van..
_________________________
Yeah..... I know I know.... It's NOT a van... But if you squint, It could be a REALLY long van?


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#326491 - September 15th 2009 10:35 pm Re: Building high MPG Motor for a 93 Vhevy Van [Re: swimmster]
racprops Offline
newbie

Registered: September 08th 2009 10:18 pm
Posts: 33
Loc: Phoenix AZ
I know about the batch firing... and am considering a newer computer for it...

Thanks for the feed back.

I am really looking at the 305 heads...

As I know that torque really gets you up and gone.

I have a 2000 Ford with a 4.6 that hits it rev limiter at 4800 and really runs out of breath at 4000. (did a dyno and saw it in real life...)

BUT that little 4.6 is nearly as fast and hot roddy as any stock 350 I have owned...perhaps faster...

It is a low RPM torquer...

And I have never owned a hot rod, I have had Studabaker Golden Hawks with 160 Speedos, and torque 289s, 65 Mustangs with 260s, 67 Cougar with a 289 then I swaped a 352 into it, a 79 Camaro with a 350, and so on...

I also had a 98 Caddy Cateara with a 6200 redline that was rated as a 300 hp out of a 3 Lt V 6.

My wifes Toyota with a 1.6 Lt would beat it across the cross walk, the Caddy had no take off...dual as dish water on take off a kid, on a 10 speed was faster...

Once launched it took off...

No bottom end, so give me torque...

Rich

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