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| | | Crank Seal Replacement | Joined: Nov 2002 Posts: 83 journeyman | OP journeyman Joined: Nov 2002 Posts: 83 | Greetings, I am seeking advice regarding replacement of the front crank seal on a 1977 Dodge Van with 318 C.I. engine. Can anyone offer advice / knowledge / personal experience regarding replacing this seal with timing cover in place. I will need to pull the harmonic balancer to access this seal, but otherwise would like to do the job with timing cover in place and crank still in engine. I think this seal is a press fit into the timing cover. Chiltons gives me the impression that it can be done, but I am seeking advice regarding how diffcult it is to pull and replace the seal with timing cover and crank in place? If this is possible, any advice regarding method used to pull the seal, and replace would be appreciated. My engine is nicely detailed with the exception of the oil leak at this location. But I dont want to start this project if it is going to create big problems.
Thanks in advance, Joe Dirt.
Last edited by JoeDirt; January 29th 2007 1:18 pm.
| | | Re: Crank Seal Replacement | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 Madman! | Madman! Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 | Yes it can be done. The hardest part will be removing the old seal. If you have a seal pulling tool it won't be to bad. the room under there is the worst issue. The seal is a simple press in and can easilly be installed with a large socket and a hammer and just tap it in place. | | | Re: Crank Seal Replacement | Joined: Nov 2002 Posts: 83 journeyman | OP journeyman Joined: Nov 2002 Posts: 83 | I will be doing this job with radiator out (for non-related reasons) for what it is worth. So space wont be an issue.
Thanks Joe Dirt. | | | Re: Crank Seal Replacement | Joined: Dec 2000 Posts: 2,699 Likes: 1 veteran | veteran Joined: Dec 2000 Posts: 2,699 Likes: 1 | with my 79, I think I did the seal with the cover on, it was a long time ago, but I think I did do it that way. it was a 318. | | | Re: Crank Seal Replacement | Joined: Jul 2005 Posts: 591 addict | addict Joined: Jul 2005 Posts: 591 | hey Joe , the seal on a 318 can be replaced with cover on , on a 360 it is with the cover off LIVE FOR VANNING ..........VANNING TO LIVE Guy & Judy Frechette | | | Re: Crank Seal Replacement | Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 21,211 Likes: 25 Supreme Master | Supreme Master Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 21,211 Likes: 25 | I've always had to have the cover off. Of course I was dealing with A-100 vans from the 60's. The crank seal went in from the back. This was on 318's.
Geez, I wonder how many times Dodge changed this around.
Nate Breece | | | Re: Crank Seal Replacement | Joined: Nov 2002 Posts: 83 journeyman | OP journeyman Joined: Nov 2002 Posts: 83 | Okay, It looks like it is up to one of you gentlemen that has a 1977 Dodge with a factory 318 to settle this debate. I anxxxiously await the final verdict.
Thanks everyone! Joe Dirt. | | | Re: Crank Seal Replacement | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 Madman! | Madman! Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 | Sorry, but every one I ever did went in from the outside. I never changed the one in my 77 just put an older 360 in it from I think it was a 72 which also went in from the outside. | | | Re: Crank Seal Replacement | Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 21,211 Likes: 25 Supreme Master | Supreme Master Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 21,211 Likes: 25 | When did Dodge go to the aluminum water pump? The style of the timing cover may have changed around this time too. I'm thinking around 1970-71 or so. Maybe they changed the way the seal was installed around this time?
Now on my 94's Magnum engine, the seal is installed from the front.
Nate Breece | | | Re: Crank Seal Replacement | Joined: Apr 2001 Posts: 1,097 old hand | old hand Joined: Apr 2001 Posts: 1,097 | It was a long time ago but when I was a wrench at Springfield Dodge every 318 or 360 from the 70's went in from the back side. They may have changed the timing cover design later but I would bet a 77 goes in from the back side. When you start the job remove the belts lower pulley and the damper first. You will be able to determine at that time if the seal is replaceable via the front of the timing cover. I have never seen one that was. If it is you got a bonus !
I can offer a great tip for replacing the pan gasket if you chose to do it while your there. That front pan seal may in fact be your leak. All the books tell you to remove the transmission for a pan gasket. You can unbolt the K frame and lower it just enough to sneak the pan out. There are four bolts that hold it to the unibody. You will have to unbolt the motor mounts and support the engine at the damper. Don't support the motor via just the crank I would do it after you reinstall the front cover and damper.
Not to make your job bigger but I would strongly recommend doing the timing chain and cam gear,water pump,by pass hose, both upper and lower hoses and the belts while you are there.
Taking your time and doing a really nice clean job will take the average driveway mechanic the best part of a weekend.
Take Care, Billy
Have Van Will Travel
| | | Re: Crank Seal Replacement | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 Madman! | Madman! Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 | OK! First off sorry, I had a brain fart. Must be losing more and more brain cells as I get older. All the older small blocks had the same seal and timing cover, except for in 68 and 69 where the timing marks were on the opposite side. The Seals go in from the inside of the cover, which means you will have to remove it to change the seal. The front oil pan seal can be changed and should be when this is removed. I believe if you buy a 'Felpro' gasket set it will come with a water pump, timing cover, front crank, and front oil pan seal.
The later small blocks have a different seal that can be replaced without removing the cover. I belive they did not change until some time in the 80's tho.
Like Billy stated, If you have 100k miles or more on the van, I would reccomend changing the timing chain and gears as well. | | | Re: Crank Seal Replacement | Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 21,211 Likes: 25 Supreme Master | Supreme Master Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 21,211 Likes: 25 | The good Fel-pro kit includes a "speedi-sleeve" for the balancer as well. They work great.
Nate Breece | | | Re: Crank Seal Replacement | Joined: Nov 2002 Posts: 83 journeyman | OP journeyman Joined: Nov 2002 Posts: 83 | Man, this is odd, I looked at my Chilton book and it shows the seal around the crank being removed and replaced from the front of the cover, both with the cover in place (on engine) and/or the cover removed (from the engine). Oh well.
P.S.: Nate, what in the world is a "speedi-sleeve".
Thanks, Joe Dirt.
Last edited by JoeDirt; February 01st 2007 9:21 am.
| | | Re: Crank Seal Replacement | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 Madman! | Madman! Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 | Can't rely solely on Chilton or Haynes. They use generic information and use it for many years. The best thing for you to do, is have everything you need to change it from the inside, and be prepared to do it that way. If it turns out different, your ahead of the game.
I'm assuming the spedi sleeve is the metal cup that is on the back of the harmonic ballancer. | | | Re: Crank Seal Replacement | Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 21,211 Likes: 25 Supreme Master | Supreme Master Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 21,211 Likes: 25 | Yes the speedi-sleeve is used if the old oil seal cut a groove in the nose of the harmonic balancer. It gives the new seal a nice smooth surface to ride on.
Nate Breece | | | Re: Crank Seal Replacement | Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 417 addict | addict Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 417 | Having owned numerous 318s... they can easily slip in with the cover on. Remove Balancer with a balance puller. You can rent these if need be. I use a screw driver- flat- with a small tip and simply drive this between the old seal and the timing cover, angled towards the crank. Do this a few times and the old seal can be pried out. DO NOT hurt the timing cover, so be careful. Then I take and clean the area with a gas soaked rag. Place a small amount of RTV copper on your finger and run this on the outside of the new seal. Place the seal in position. Using gentle taps, a non metallic hammer is preffered, start going around the seal. Sometimes it lines up perfect, other times you have to wipe and reappy some RTV and start over. Get it in strait , gently, without bending it. I recommend using an impact ratchet to tighten the main bolt (1 1/4") back up. Had one come loose one time. My 1973 was the same, Nate, so I dunno when the swap was made. I dont know if I had to do any on a 360, its been awhile if I had.
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| | | Re: Crank Seal Replacement | Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 417 addict | addict Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 417 | What gives??? Ive done a ton of 318s through the front. In fact, placing it in from the back would destoy the lip... IE: it always goes in front to back, whether or not the cover is on or off. Im going to the barn and get a cover and put some pictures up so I can show you guys what I mean. BRB
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| | | Re: Crank Seal Replacement | Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 417 addict | addict Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 417 | Ok here goes... first the picture from the outside looking towards the engine. I placed a canning lid ring next to the timing cover to show in which direction the lid of the seal goes- they kind of have the same dimensions and I dont have a fresh seal around. the second picture is from the "inside" looking out. The canning ring has been reversed accordingly. Thus, the flat side of the seal faces forward, the lipped side faces inwards, and the seal is stuck lightly on the flat side, driving it inwards. | | | Re: Crank Seal Replacement | Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 21,211 Likes: 25 Supreme Master | Supreme Master Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 21,211 Likes: 25 | I noticed that is a 70-up timing cover (aluminum w/p era). All the front crank seals I've done have been on 69-back 318's (cast iron w/p era) in A-100's. I could only get the old seal out with the cover off.
Unless I was missing something (???)
Nate Breece | | | Re: Crank Seal Replacement | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 Madman! | Madman! Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 | See, I wasn't losing my mind. That's what I thought, only looking at some picktures of the housing on line and thinking the seal looked more like an Axle seal, there would have been no way to put it in the front. I knew I should have went out to the barn to find a cover, it's just too damn cold out there. | | | Re: Crank Seal Replacement | Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 Madman! | Madman! Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 28,125 | Oh, easiest way to install the new one is with a socket the same diameter as the seal just line everything up staight and tap it in. As long as everything is close to straight it will go right in the first time. | | | Re: Crank Seal Replacement | Joined: Apr 2001 Posts: 1,097 old hand | old hand Joined: Apr 2001 Posts: 1,097 | I don't think anyone here disputes which way the seal faces. The $64,000.00 dollar question is if the seal can be removed without removing the timing cover. In the mid 70's you had to remove the cover and install the seal from the rear. I think the later design small block Mopars you can. I would imagine mid to late 80's is when they changed.
Your front picture may show where the confusion starts. The timing cover has that raised area that goes around the crank on the outside that looks like a seal lip.
In any event we got a lot of miles out of this subject !
Take Care, Billy
Have Van Will Travel
| | | Re: Crank Seal Replacement | Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 21,211 Likes: 25 Supreme Master | Supreme Master Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 21,211 Likes: 25 | Yeah Bill your right. I think we can put this to bed now.
"Replace crank seal per your application"
That should do it.
;)
Nate Breece | | | Re: Crank Seal Replacement | Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 417 addict | addict Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 417 | Superbeast is prob. right about the socket... I just never had any sockets that big to use. Never have worked on any of the cast iron pumped era small blocks, everything Ive had has ben 1973 and up, so I am in the dark on those. But Joe Dirt has a 77. It would be a pain in the arse to have to do it from the back, so I can see why they changed the design if they did indeedly did change it. Ok, I give. Try it and tell us the results, please Joe, who is probabally already done by now and holding his breath, grinnin.
<img src=http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c11/Vantravlrs/pt2.jpg alt= - /]
| | | Re: Crank Seal Replacement | Joined: Nov 2002 Posts: 83 journeyman | OP journeyman Joined: Nov 2002 Posts: 83 | Nope not done yet, havent even started. I have to replace my water pump, so I was just trying to round up some advice on this seal issue before I start, as I will replace this seal at the same time I do the water pump. Having two young sons, nothing "van" related gets done too quickly around my house. It is my hobby and takes the back burner to many other projects and responsibilites. I will probably start tearing it down in the next couple weeks though. Thanks for all the advice from those who posted here, and if anyone else has any tried and true rock solid advice, I am still listening. Thanks for posting the pics Vantravlrs, this is a big help. After all the back and forth, I am looking forward to seeing who is correct.
Thanks, Joe Dirt. | | |
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